Odd marks on film

ingi · Jun 21, 2011

Hi all, I am hoping someone can tell me what these markings are on my film. I haven't had this problem before so I am at a loss. Film details Ilford fp4 plus 120 rated at 50 iso
Developed in ID11 for recommended time. Nothing unusual in loading or development of film. Affected frames 7,8,9 and 10. Most of it is in this image posted. I have darkened the image down and outlined some of the marks, so you can see it better. The marks do not form lines through the adjacent frames though, they are random. Any help appreciated. Cheers

tomalophicon · Jun 21, 2011

I was gonna say, there are red lines all over it.

They look quite odd. My only guess is maybe scratches before the film was developed.

Try another roll and see if it goes away. Maybe it's just the particular film you've got.

polyglot · Jun 21, 2011

Looks like something (long hairs? mould?) was on the film before you developed it. I say that because there's a core of underexposure/underdevelopment surrounded by overdevelopment, the latter perhaps being caused by turbulence around whatever is on the film.

It looks a little like what you get when the film touches during processing but there's too much of it for that to be the cause.

dxqcanada · Jun 21, 2011

Do you have long finger nails ?

Suspect scratching of emulsion while loading the film on the reel prior to development.

Valerie · Jun 21, 2011

I have an old camera that tends to scratch my film as it winds..... looks very similar to this after development.

trexx · Jun 21, 2011

Could film stress while loading. What type of reel and how do you load it?

Newt_on_Swings · Jun 22, 2011

Scratches in the emulsion, they cause clear marks that print and scan black. could be from anything. Felt trap dirt, camera pressure plate, loading during development, squeeging the film to hard etc. try another roll, stuff like this happens from time to time. its when its on every roll that you need to worry.

ingi · Jun 22, 2011

Thanks to all your responses. This is the first film I have had it happen on, so hoping this is just once in hundred type things. The reel is a standard spiral from a paterson tank. I dont remember any problems loading or it feeling different when I loaded the film on the spiral. I just found it unusual that it was midway through the film, I do have long fingernails but I hold my reel with the pads of my fingertips on the outside edge, so my nails /fingers dont really have any contact with the emulsion side of the film other than loading the film leader. I did notice some little floaties (not sure what they were, but they were tiny and soft) when tipping the developer out. Maybe these have scratched the film while agitating, but I would have thought this would be all over the frames rather than in the middle of the reel?

tomalophicon · Jun 22, 2011

It could be random where they appear.
Do you use powder developer?
I find when I'm nearing the end of the bottle of powdered developer, I get 10 or so tiny little floaties that always cause me a bit of concern.

ingi · Jun 22, 2011

As far as I know it is powdered developer, ready mixed for students to use. I am unable to develop my own film at moment with my chemicals being at 6degs,( I live in a very cold house). So I make use of the darkroom and chemicals at tafe and take pot luck that they are working, not contaminated, mixed properly I developed another film this afternoon, in new developer and on quick inspection the problem hasn't re-occured

foc · Jun 22, 2011

Could it be the film loaded onto the dev reel. Those marks look to me like the film emulsion was touching part of the film when loaded.

Rick A · Jun 22, 2011

Being that it is 120 film, did it come into contact with anything when you were spooling it onto the reel? Do you seperate the film from the backing prior to spooling, or do you wrestle the film and backer simultaniously to load.

ingi · Jun 28, 2011

I kind of separate the film from paper as I am loading. It is awkward to explain, I get the first part of the paper and put it between me and the table to hold it there while I get the film started on the spool, I then place the rest of the film still rolled up, in the empty tank and hold the spool/reel just above the tank, so I can load on the film to spool. So maybe the film unraveled a bit or something in the tank?

tomalophicon · Jun 28, 2011

I've always found removing the paper altogether before spooling works well.

mr.datsun · Jun 28, 2011

ingi said:
I kind of separate the film from paper as I am loading. It is awkward to explain, I get the first part of the paper and put it between me and the table to hold it there while I get the film started on the spool, I then place the rest of the film still rolled up, in the empty tank and hold the spool/reel just above the tank, so I can load on the film to spool. So maybe the film unraveled a bit or something in the tank?

Sounds fine. I just feed the end in and start it into the reel until it grips. Then I carefully let the film and paper dangle downwards towards the floor as I reel it in, checking that it's not getting twisted. But I think you would have noticed if the film was not wound properly when you opened up the tank at the end. It would have to be out of the grooves at some point and buckled. Also you tend to know when it is not winding correctly as you wind it. You feel it. I think you'll have to carry on and mark this one down to experience. And hope it doesn't happen again.

Simon R Galley · Jun 28, 2011

Dear Ingi,

I have looked at the scan, each density area has a 'halo' around it, and they are not linear, that is typical of 'stress' being introduced to the film, usually on loading film before processing. 'Wet hands / wet reel' syndrome....its very typical...not that I am saying thats what it is.

As it is an ILFORD film you are welcome to return it and we will check it out, to get the definitive answer you need to examine the film layers under an electron microscope. I appreciate Tasmania is not 'just around the corner' but we will be happy to check it out for you, and then at least you would know.

Simon. ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

ingi · Jun 28, 2011

Thanks for the offer Simon, could you please explain the wet hands/wet reel syndrome. Being a novice at this I dont understand how the film "stresses" in the middle of the roll. Thanks

ingi · Jun 28, 2011

mr.datsun said:
Sounds fine. I just feed the end in and start it into the reel until it grips. Then I carefully let the film and paper dangle downwards towards the floor as I reel it in, checking that it's not getting twisted. But I think you would have noticed if the film was not wound properly when you opened up the tank at the end. It would have to be out of the grooves at some point and buckled. Also you tend to know when it is not winding correctly as you wind it. You feel it. I think you'll have to carry on and mark this one down to experience. And hope it doesn't happen again.

The film looked fine in the spool after it was unloaded. Yep chalking this up to could of been anything, will have to experiment with different ways to hold/place the rest of the film when loading. Thanks

ingi · Jun 28, 2011

tomalophicon said:
I've always found removing the paper altogether before spooling works well.

Interesting, so you place the end of film in spool then separate all the paper? where do you place the film while spooling, do you leave it to hang down?

Simon R Galley · Jun 28, 2011

Just that wet hands or wet reels, resist against the film and 'move' the film, with the film secure in the reel, movement over a small area can introduce stress.

I was always taught to remove the backing strip first, taking care to remove the tape very slowly back on itself to avoid static...

Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

Sirius Glass · Jun 28, 2011

Simon R Galley said:
I was always taught to remove the backing strip first, taking care to remove the tape very slowly back on itself to avoid static...

I always take the paper off first, because I found the paper got in the way when I am loading steel reels. When I was a teenager, I left the paper on and used the cranking back and forth to load the plastic reels.

Now that I have the Jobo plastic reels with are loaded by cranking back and forth, I think that I will still remove the paper first because of your advice. [I have never gotten bad advise from you, Simon. ]

The tape always seems to be a necessary annoyance.

Steve

Rick A · Jun 28, 2011

I always seperate the film from the backing paper prior to spooling, makes for a much easier task of loading reels. It also allows me to insert the taped end under the keeper with stainless reels, feels more secure and aids in centering the film.

MattKing · Jun 28, 2011

I'd suggest to the OP that he look at the videos on Jason Brunner's website (Jason is one of the moderators here on APUG).

Jason and I differ slightly, in that he doesn't remove the backing paper first, but otherwise he loads film the way I suggest you do it.

To remove the backing paper first, peel back the backing paper until you get to the film. Cradle the film in one palm while you allow it to naturally curl into itself as you continue to peel back the backing with your other hand. When you get to the tape, you will have a tube of film in your hand, and backing paper hanging down from the other hand. Carefully peel the tape from the backing paper. You can then let the backing paper and spool fall out of the way.

All in total darkness of course.

Here is a link to the Free Videos section on Jason's excellent site:

http://www.jasonbrunner.com/videos.html

mr.datsun · Jun 30, 2011

ingi said:
The film looked fine in the spool after it was unloaded. Yep chalking this up to could of been anything, will have to experiment with different ways to hold/place the rest of the film when loading. Thanks

Simon R Galley's note about a wet reel/hands would be an explanation. The film sticks in the reel and then you might get buckling as you twist the reels to wind. I think with experience, you know when that is happening. But whatever caused it, the stressed film diagnosis sounds the most plausible cause. 120 is probably more susceptible to buckling than 35mm.

I'm sure you know all this but don't use undue force on the reels as you rotate them. If something sticks then stop and check for wet reel / film or jamming. If the former, get everything dry (in the dark) and start again. Sometimes the film does not feed in true and can jam. Again don't force it but remove the film gently and start again. And I find that initial jamming is more likely with 120.

Simon's analysis offer sounds a good one.

ingi · Jul 5, 2011

Thankyou to everyone, you have all been extremely helpful. Matt, I will look at the videos you linked. And thankyou again to Simon for the analysis offer.

Odd marks on film

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