Odd horizontal density change on sheet film

romosoho · Jan 12, 2025

I just developed a sheet of 5x7 HP5 (F76+ 1+9 7:00 in a Steerman tray) and got a weird, straight line density change. The image is at
Right under my son's nose, you can see a pretty decent line. This is on the negative as well. I thought maybe it was the darkslide removal process, but I've had a bit of light leak in that way before and it's not so clean, nor is it so far down the negative. I followed recommendations for the tray and did the 1 minute water presoak. I do not use stop bath, but otherwise it's a standard development process. I honestly am just not sure what is causing this.

Thanks,
Allan

koraks · Jan 12, 2025

The film has been partially fogged to light.

romosoho said:
I thought maybe it was the darkslide removal process

Yes, that sounds like a plausible cause, in combination with a bellows light leak. Did you pause somewhere halfway when pulling out the dark slide, or putting it back in?

romosoho · Jan 12, 2025

koraks said:
The film has been partially fogged to light.

Yes, that sounds like a plausible cause, in combination with a bellows light leak. Did you pause somewhere halfway when pulling out the dark slide, or putting it back in?

So the density change is only in the part of the film exposed when in the holder, so it would have happened after loading (just thinking aloud here). The film edge shows no density change.

The dark cloth is purposely draped over the entire length of the bellows to help make sure there are no light leaks. Not a perfect solution but I've not seen this problem before when using this technique.

Halfway - no. I did leave it pulled for a bit while I tried to motivate (unsuccessfully) my son to give me some kind of usable expression. But I did not pull it out halfway, sit for a bit, then the rest of the way.

Thanks for the brainstorming.

koraks · Jan 12, 2025

The sharp definition suggests it's something that happened with the (inadvertent) mask being either very close to the film (virtually in direct contact with it), and/or due to fogging with highly collimated light. Hence my expectation that it's an in-camera defect. However, your reasoning goes against this, and the seemingly perfectly straight, but imperfectly angled fogging edge also doesn't match very well with a partially inserted dark slide.

The double edge is interesting; it makes me lean towards something involving collimated light and a reflection against a thin object that partially covered the film. Something like a second sheet of film.

I've had something similar happen once with some dark slides that had been sitting out in the open a bit too long; they're virtually light tight, but not entirely (at least not all of them). Another thing that comes to mind is fogging as several sheets lie partially overlapping each other while loading the film holders in a not perfectly darkened room. Do you use a darkroom or a changing bag for loading and unloading the film holders? No smart watches, smoke detectors etc. wreaking havoc?

romosoho · Jan 12, 2025

I used an Adorama changing "room." It's a big cube thing rather than a flat bag. But still the same idea so light tight. I distinctly remember seeing my smart watch on the table, outside the bag, as it usually is when I'm working with film.

Sirius Glass · Jan 12, 2025

romosoho said:
I just developed a sheet of 5x7 HP5 (F76+ 1+9 7:00 in a Steerman tray) and got a weird, straight line density change. The image is at
Right under my son's nose, you can see a pretty decent line. This is on the negative as well. I thought maybe it was the darkslide removal process, but I've had a bit of light leak in that way before and it's not so clean, nor is it so far down the negative. I followed recommendations for the tray and did the 1 minute water presoak. I do not use stop bath, but otherwise it's a standard development process. I honestly am just not sure what is causing this.

Thanks,
Allan

Unfortunately the first image of your post produce the following image.

Could you please repost it so that others can see it?

romosoho · Jan 12, 2025

Sure. Though it's an https and it's flickr. It's not like it's a personal website without SSL. But here it is inserted directly in the thread.

Allan

MattKing · Jan 12, 2025

There is no problem for me when I access the flickr image.
That almost looks like a double exposure - which of course a light leak actually is.

Romanko · Jan 12, 2025

Light-fogged during development (leaky tray)?

mshchem · Jan 12, 2025

romosoho said:
I used an Adorama changing "room." It's a big cube thing rather than a flat bag. But still the same idea so light tight. I distinctly remember seeing my smart watch on the table, outside the bag, as it usually is when I'm working with film.

I would suspect the changing bag. Because, I'm not sure there's anyone left making a decent bag. Maybe someone in Germany or Japan???

romosoho · Jan 12, 2025

Romanko said:
Light-fogged during development (leaky tray)?

would it have hit at such a clear-cut line?

MattKing · Jan 12, 2025

koraks said:
The double edge is interesting; it makes me lean towards something involving collimated light and a reflection against a thin object that partially covered the film. Something like a second sheet of film.

It would be worth it to check in the camera, in the film holder, and in the changing tent for a stray sheet of film.

Harry Callahan · Jan 13, 2025

When looking at the print enlarged, the line separating the fogged area from the unfogged is pretty sharp. It looks as if a sheet (of film) had been put on this film and a little, (rather) even exposure had been made. I don`t think a partially pulled dark slide could produce such a sharp line.
It even looks as if two sheets, slightly shifted to each other had been lying on this sheet of film while even fog had been exposed. Respectively one sheet which was moved during fog exposure.
It should be unlikely for a light-leaking changing bag/box to produce such even fog. Not impossible but unlikely, because of which i also consider possible a packing failure from the manufacturer.
Or a storage problem of the unexposed film.
How old is the box of 5x7 film?

Ian Grant · Jan 13, 2025

Could be very slight fogging during loading, as the sheet is removed from the packaging, a sheet half pulled out while loading another.

Ian

romosoho · Jan 13, 2025

Harry Callahan said:
How old is the box of 5x7 film?

I will have a go at checking everything for a stray sheet of film.

The box isn't new - probably expired 10 years. BUT all of the 8 sheets I've shot in the last two weeks prepping for the portrait session are from the same box. I don't shoot expired on purpose - I took a long hiatus from LF and don't want to just throw away the film I already have.

Thanks, everyone, for the ideas.

Doremus Scudder · Jan 13, 2025

Camera back pulled away from the body when the darkslide was partially inserted. The part covered by the darkslide was not affected. The darkslide edge is the sharp line on the negative.

Best,

Doremus

romosoho · Jan 13, 2025

Doremus Scudder said:
Camera back pulled away from the body when the darkslide was partially inserted. The part covered by the darkslide was not affected. The darkslide edge is the sharp line on the negative.

Best,

Doremus

That's not what happened in this case. At no point was the darkslide partially inserted.

koraks · Jan 14, 2025

Doremus Scudder said:
The darkslide edge is the sharp line on the negative.

Which means it was not the failure mode you describe, as that would have created a rather fuzzy line, not a sharp contour. If you remove the back from the camera, the light that falls between them is relatively diffuse.

Harry Callahan · Jan 14, 2025

Ian Grant said:
Could be very slight fogging during loading, as the sheet is removed from the packaging, a sheet half pulled out while loading another.

Ian

Yes, either this or

romosoho said:
I will have a go at checking everything for a stray sheet of film.

The box isn't new - probably expired 10 years. BUT all of the 8 sheets I've shot in the last two weeks prepping for the portrait session are from the same box. I don't shoot expired on purpose - I took a long hiatus from LF and don't want to just throw away the film I already have.

Thanks, everyone, for the ideas.

was there half of a sheet inside the box for years?
If this box was opened ten years ago and one of the sheet film was exposed to air it could fog like this. If it was covered partially by a cut sheet of film or a cardboard being smaller than the entire 5x7 sheet, fog only would affect the part of the film having contact to air.

I mean the fog may be more intense on the left part of the print and less intense on the right part - but if so decrease of fog is very even. It should be hard to get such kind of fog by a leaking changing bag/box.
Also the subject is brighter on the left, therefore i`m not really sure about the fog decreasing to the right of the print.

If the box is ten years old and has been opened ten years ago (?) a storage problem would be very likely.

koraks · Jan 14, 2025

Harry Callahan said:
If the box is ten years old and has been opened ten years ago (?) a storage problem would be very likely.

I agree, but such problems nearly always show up as uneven density and artefacts like dichroic fog, which makes the processed negative look kind of funny. I'm sure OP would have noticed it.

This really looks like partial fogging to light, not due to chemical effects of contaminants in the packaging etc. (film doesn't fog to regular air as such).

Harry Callahan · Jan 14, 2025

I see.
But this fog is so even for a pinhole in a changing bag... does the TO have fluorescent lamp(s) in his darkroom where film was developed?

Ian Grant · Jan 14, 2025

It's the very even fogging, which is akin to a very slight pre/post exposure flashing, and the sharp edge. It's not in camera fogging or pinholes. Looks like a darkroom issue.

Ian

romosoho · Jan 14, 2025

Thanks for the input. Sure, maybe it's because the film is old. I'll think about whether I want to shoot my fresh Delta 100 (which I shoot at 80, so that's a lot slower than I shoot HP5, even expired) or not. The session is this weekend so I don't think I have time to test again. Note that the other 2 sheets I shot this past weekend were fine.

I'll try to think about how it could have partially fogged in such a uniform way. Remember that the horizontal line doesn't continue to the edge of the film. It's just in the image area.

But everything you all have said gives me ideas of things to be more careful with, certainly.

koraks · Jan 14, 2025

romosoho said:
Remember that the horizontal line doesn't continue to the edge of the film. It's just in the image area.

If a fogging exposure is relatively mild, it'll act effectively as a pre-flash. Density does not need to show up in unexposed areas of the film in this case, but the effect will still be visible in the image area. So the lack of density along the edges in itself is not a conclusive indication of where in the process the problem occurred.

romosoho · Jan 14, 2025

Oh, okay. Thanks.

Odd horizontal density change on sheet film

romosoho

Attachments

koraks

Moderator

romosoho

koraks

Moderator

romosoho

Sirius Glass

romosoho

MattKing

Moderator

Romanko

mshchem

romosoho

MattKing

Moderator

Harry Callahan

Ian Grant

romosoho

Doremus Scudder

romosoho

koraks

Moderator

Harry Callahan

koraks

Moderator

Harry Callahan

Ian Grant

romosoho

koraks

Moderator

romosoho

Odd horizontal density change on sheet film

Attachments

Moderator

Moderator

Moderator

Moderator

Moderator

Moderator

Moderator

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency