Now we ask the question

Curt · Dec 1, 2005

Who makes the paper and film we use and how stable are the companies and how long will they produce the materials.

Micheal Smith says Kodak will provide him with the remainder of Azo paper, then sells it to some unknown enitiy.
JandC can't provide all of the products it lists all of the time.
Amidol developer wasn't available for months this Summer/Fall.

There are no film camera stores with complete inventories. My one and only store in town has a one shelf "real" photo shelf, mostly enpty.

I just went to France and couldn't find a real photograph there. Everything is digital. And NO TRIPODS IN PARIS. They are pushing film photography into the trash there as they are here in the US.

Maybe the world community should ban paint and canvas or clay? Better yet burn all of the Art and Photography books. Have everything digital so it can be examined to determine if it is legal and acceptable.

I can see the problems that the early artists had with the Church and Governments. Artists are like a fragile flower that only grows under specific conditions and is easily crushed and made extinct.

blaze-on · Dec 1, 2005

It's hard not to think about it when so many are abandoning craft for so called "ease".

I just returned from a small local show. ALL inkjet, labeled on back as such, but what really got my goat was the one guy who labeled his b&w inkjets as..(sit down, hold on to the chair arms..) well, he labeled them as "piezoelectric". WTF is that supposed to mean?

Besides the prints being absolutely devoid of any emotional content and just plain "dead", I can only assume that they were printed and then zapped with a defibrillator or some shock device.

To be honest, there were two B&w's that I feel got the most out of the epson technology. Many were digital "capture" as well.

Plain dead. Piezoelectrifried.

Photo Engineer · Dec 1, 2005

Shocking.

PE

david b · Dec 1, 2005

My favorite inkjet terms are:
- giclee
- archival ultrachrome
- digital c print

I know there are several more but I'm a bit brain dead at the moment.

Why not just call them for what they are: inkjet prints

And again I scream out loud: support ilford

Paul Sorensen · Dec 2, 2005

blaze-on said:
he labeled them as "piezoelectric". WTF is that supposed to mean?

It means that he not only uses an inkjet, but he is proud of how it manages to shoot the ink onto the paper. According to Epson, this was quite an innovation in 1993 when they introduced it. It is the inkjet equivalent of advertising your "cold light" prints. Come to think of it, that might sound cool, "Silver Gelatin Cold Light Prints."

pelerin · Dec 2, 2005

david b said:
My favorite inkjet terms are:
- giclee
- archival ultrachrome
- digital c print

I know there are several more but I'm a bit brain dead at the moment.

Why not just call them for what they are: inkjet prints

And again I scream out loud: support ilford

A "digital c print" is not an inkjet print. It is made by direct exposure on type c photo paper thru one of a number of means. Digital yes, but not an inkjet. The existence and commercial viability of these hybrid prints is one of the factors which keeps cut sheet color paper available for those who want to make (analog) C prints in low volumes. The downside of this symbiosis is that the success of lightjets, chromiras, frontiers, dlabs, etc. has served to effectively push direct reversal processes into the empty elevator shaft of history.

I think the folks you want to call on the carpet are the ones referring to monochrome inkjets as "carbon prints." At best this demonstrates a lack of awareness of photo history. If I boldly announced that my next oeuvre would consist exclusively of the specular brilliance of 57 chevy bumpers captured in pinhole photographs you might suspect I was a bit daft but harmless. However, if I announced that I was calling the prints "Autochromes", I think I would be roundly (and rightfully) called to task. Carbon Giclee?
Celac.

bogeyes · Dec 2, 2005

use film

There must be millions of film cameras out there, if people continue to use them film will stay with us. Many young people are satisfied with looking at an instant result on their mobile phone screen. Recently I observed a group of teenagers enthuse about all the fantastic shots they had taken on their phones. They then proceeded to wipe their memory cards clean ready for the next lot of instant pictures. Good fun for them, yes, but is it photography or is it image capture? Will future generations care how a picture is produced? I think not, just as long as it is instant and its quality is acceptable to them digital will tick all the boxes. It seems like Kodak have recognised that the majority of people love photographs but are too lazy or hate having to learn how to make them, digital is the answer, pop the memory card into a digital workstation, press a few buttons and thats it. What you get are prints that are acceptable to the majority, if they need tweaking there is always photo shop, which for some is too much to learn. You can argue forever the advantages/ disadvantages of film versus digital, but just take a moment and think how lazy the majority of the human race is, excellence in anything takes effort. For me producing an excellent b&w print takes a lot of effort, I also: climb mountains, ride motorcycles as fast as they will go, restore vintage bikes, cars, cameras , guns, furniture etc,etc. For me doing the hard things in life gives me great satisfaction, a natural high. Have I got it wrong? Maybe if I was young today I would take the easy way, pop a few pills, sniff a bit of coke, drink myself to a standstill and take pictures on my mobie phone, have a laugh at the photos of myself and others totally incapacitated, then wipe the phones memory and my own because to be honest the high wasnt so good after all. Who can take good photographs when intoxicated anyway? Could that be a new topic?Apologies for the rant I have become middle aged.

Andy K · Dec 2, 2005

david b said:
My favorite inkjet terms are:
- giclee
- archival ultrachrome
- digital c print

I know there are several more but I'm a bit brain dead at the moment.

Why not just call them for what they are: inkjet prints

See here what happens when you actually say this in the presence of *grits teeth* 'digital darkroom' users . It is an interesting thread, things get 'warm' on page four)

markbb · Dec 2, 2005

Curt said:
There are no film camera stores with complete inventories. My one and only store in town has a one shelf "real" photo shelf, mostly enpty..

Not true. My nearest photography shop is stuffed with film, paper, chemicals etc. Silverprint (for it is they) in London continue to add to their inventory with new films, e.g. rollei R3. They are also doing a roaring trade in digital stuff. See, analogue and digital can exist side by side.

Curt said:
I just went to France and couldn't find a real photograph there. Everything is digital. And NO TRIPODS IN PARIS. They are pushing film photography into the trash there as they are here in the US.

The no tripod rule, along with the no street photography rule is *not* anti film, it's anti photography. That doesn't stop you whipping out a press 5x4, using a SLR, TLR, rangefinder etc.

gnashings · Dec 2, 2005

Andy,

My favorite stupidity of the current time: "Is this film or digital?" below a screen capture of an image. Its pixels on a monitor, and turned into zeroes and ones somehow to get there - ITS ALL DIGITAL on a computer screen.
Nice way to share your images with people - I am eternally grateful for our APUG galleries because I get to see some wonderful photos I would otherwise have no access to (and get valuable input on my own stuff) - but for the sake of these idiotic "bet you can't tell" tests... there is hardly anything more pointless.
Frankly, I couldn't stomach going to page four, I gave up...

Peter.

Andy K · Dec 2, 2005

Peter, I can understand that. However, you missed out on such nuggets of 'truth' as:

"I just used AZO dyes, not in the form of slides but in the form of a DVD-R"

"Put a pure carbon inkjet print on a fine art rag paper and a silver print on a sunlit windowsill. Look at the both again in a couple of weeks."

"It is a very easy method to simulate grain."

"Pure carbon pigment inks are even better."

"Hey, I just looked at Andy K's gallery and guess what, There are digitized images in there"

That last one made me laugh, it obviously proved the pro-digital argument! :rolleyes:

Well, you get the picture, lol!

gnashings · Dec 2, 2005

As I hit the "submit" button I sort of worried how you may take my post - always a worry with the buletin boards - I am glad that you got my meaning.
And you're right - I did miss out!
I just know that I would just end up signing up for another forum and causing a "soap box" of their own, or my swift demise as a member, had I kept reading! I will have to learn not to under-estimate your suggestions, though, these are truly pure gold tid-bits!
Mental note, when Andy says "read it!", I should read it, hehehehe
I think these are going on my all time favorite list!
Now... if I could just simulate my handwriting here... I could throw away all my pens!

Peter.

severian · Dec 2, 2005

Remember the quote
"From this moment on painting is dead" said by.....I forget
The discovery of photography did not kill painting. Digital will not kill film.
Jack B

Mark Layne · Dec 2, 2005

Curt said:
Who makes the paper and film we use and how stable are the companies and how long will they produce the materials.

Micheal Smith says Kodak will provide him with the remainder of Azo paper, then sells it to some unknown enitiy.
JandC can't provide all of the products it lists all of the time.
Amidol developer wasn't available for months this Summer/Fall.

There are no film camera stores with complete inventories. My one and only store in town has a one shelf "real" photo shelf, mostly enpty.

Some of our best current suppliers say not to horde,buy freezers etc.
I see their point to a point.

However not one of them can supply me a box of Portriga Rapid, Azo 3, 127 Verichrome Pan, Ektalure. My freezer can.
Mark

David H. Bebbington · Dec 2, 2005

david b said:
My favorite inkjet terms are:
- giclee
- archival ultrachrome
- digital c print

I know there are several more but I'm a bit brain dead at the moment.

Why not just call them for what they are: inkjet prints

And again I scream out loud: support ilford

It has been said before BUT ...

Giclée literally is the French for inkjet print, the term has become well accepted as shorthand for "digital print produced with high-quality materials which will offer good permanence, not with the cheapest inks and paper from your local office supplier which will fade if you look at them too hard"). This use of terminology is directly comparable to the phrase "silver gelatin print" beloved of art galleries - "bromide print" seems evocative of army tea, "chlorobromide" or "bromochloride" sounds like a nasty yukky chemical you put in your swimming pool, so "silver gelatin" it is (taking a calculated risk that you can afford to offend the odd few vegans who don't like the idea of cow bones boiling down to make the gelatin).

"Archival ultrachrome" has a simple origin - "Ultrachrome" is an Epson trade mark indicating archival ink technology.

As others have said, "digital C" is a digitally-BALANCED print onto wet-process materials (from either a digital or film source).

I trust this posting will be received in a mature and reflective way .

df cardwell · Dec 2, 2005

severian said:
Remember the quote
"From this moment on painting is dead" said by.....I forget
The discovery of photography did not kill painting. Digital will not kill film.
Jack B

Only Photographers can kill film.

And we've done a right good job of it so far.

.

Michael Kadillak · Dec 2, 2005

If the French will not allow you to use a tripod, then shoot somewhere else. They do not have a corner on where quality images can be found. I was in Germany last summer and they embraced me and my tripod legs with open arms every place I went. Plus, while folks accept digital as commonplace, conventional view cameras still hold a place of esteem as "professional instruments".

Rather than lament the digital/film interface concentrate on expressing yourself with whatever medium you decide to use and just move on with it. If it is film, then buy a freezer, build a darkroom and get on with it. Film will be here for a long time for one basic reason. The movie industry still uses it and I think that it will be some time before that changes. The industry is simply reorganizing to a new set of operating parameters. J&C is doing a great job filling this void with diverse films in as many sizes as we could ask for. The film companies overseas had a period of down time with every intention to come back on line. What is the downside? I mix my own chemistry and if I needed to could coat my own paper. As long as I can shoot film I am good to go.

Life is good for all LF types. Get out and make some photographs and you will feel much better!

Mark Layne · Dec 2, 2005

df cardwell said:
Only Photographers can kill film.

And we've done a right good job of it so far.

.

Well said
And fill me in on the Nova Scotia aspect sometime. I thought I was the only user of film out here.

Mark

firecracker · Dec 2, 2005

Living in Japan where the technology is almost everything in its moden mainstream culture, I find three remarkable things in the consumer market: karaoke, happoshu, and digital camera.

Karaoke is a cheap toy for those who can't play any instrument or sing in a band. It could be fun to play with it, but you can't be so serious about it. At least that what I felt when I was a teenager playing my guitar in a rock band.

Happoshu is a cheap product of beer with a reduced amount of what makes real beer to avoid the higher liquor tax. There's even a different kind fake beer that's made out of soy bean these days, and you can sort of imagine what it tastes like.

And digital cameras are somewhat in the same way. I mean there are useful real professional tools like digital 3CCD or HD camcorders, which come in small sizes and are better than old ones, but that's about all I can appreciate.

And inkjet is, I don't know. But it's very much the same as a fake beer; it looks, smells, and may taste the same in a first sip, but your stomack starts to go unsettled. Your body knows what it is that you're taking into your body and that's going to your soul.

My desktop computer is set up with a high-end digital scanner and a printer, but the outcome is no better than creating over-priced glossy posters. So I built my darkroom last year for my actual "prints", and I've been pretty happy having both systems up and running.

Tom Hoskinson · Dec 3, 2005

blaze-on said:
It's hard not to think about it when so many are abandoning craft for so called "ease".

I just returned from a small local show. ALL inkjet, labeled on back as such, but what really got my goat was the one guy who labeled his b&w inkjets as..(sit down, hold on to the chair arms..) well, he labeled them as "piezoelectric".

"piezoelectric"!? Well, I am really shocked!

Also, Ghengis and I will try our very best not to Horde - - but no promises!

MattKing · Dec 3, 2005

blaze-on said:
I just returned from a small local show. ALL inkjet, labeled on back as such, but what really got my goat was the one guy who labeled his b&w inkjets as..(sit down, hold on to the chair arms..) well, he labeled them as "piezoelectric". WTF is that supposed to mean?

Piezoelectric refers to an effect where the application of force to a material, results in the material producing an electric field. The reverse effect can also occur - an application of an electric field causes the material to deform physically. I believe that strictly speaking, this is more properly referred to as electrostriction.

You may ask what has this got to do with prints? I have a vague recollection that some inkjets use the reverse piezoelectric effect to eject the ink on to the paper.

I did a quick google search and came up with the following link that discusses piezoelectric effects:

piezoelectric

dancqu · Dec 3, 2005

df cardwell said:
Only Photographers can kill film.

I worry some of the Tag-along bunch and
their cut-the-throat-of-what-is-left interests.
Where ever in the world they manufacture.

Like it or not Kodak is the US of A's last
domestic source of silver gelatined emulsions.
Many have a very good opinion of what product
they do still produce.

Overall we will have to spend somewhat more OR
ELSE we may end up with a whole lot less. I'm not
going to chance it. Dan

avandesande · Dec 3, 2005

Yes, much like the advertised 'Fux Pearls"

David H. Bebbington said:
It has been said before BUT ...

Giclée literally is the French for inkjet print, the term has become well accepted as shorthand for "digital print produced with high-quality materials which will offer good permanence, not with the cheapest inks and paper from your local office supplier which will fade if you look at them too hard")..

zenrhino · Dec 3, 2005

blaze-on said:
It's hard not to think about it when so many are abandoning craft for so called "ease".

It's not just ease -- it's basic availability of (what is rapidly becoming) obsolete technology.

Humans are inherently artistic creatures and they will use whatever they can to produce the art that reflects their vision of the human condition.

Now we ask the question

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