Nova Monochrome Uneven Development

Matthew Gorringe · Mar 1, 2007

I've recently bought one of these in the 12x16" size and have been using it for some RC work prints without trouble.

Now trying both Ilford Gallerie and WT FB with it I find I get uneven development in the form of lines running across the print. If I turn the print 90 degrees the lines are also turned so I am confident it's something to do with the processing.

At first I thought it was my agitation method heating up the emulsion when rubbing on the textured surface. So I varied that to a random/circular pattern. Didn't work, still have line running spanwise.

I tried minimal agitation, same result.

I thought it might be the chemistry so I tried fresh batches of both Dektol 1:2 and Cooltone developers. Didn't work, same result.

I know other people here have used the Monochrome for fine printing so please help me and tell me what I'm doing wrong.

bdial · Mar 1, 2007

I just started using a Quad processor and I've had a few prints with streaks which I've attributed to agitation and possibly the level of the developer. I've tried being more aggressive with the agitation in the first 15 seconds or so, and it has seemed to resolve it. But this is with RC. I've not used FB in it so far. I also run the paper back and forth within the developer by sliding the clip along the top. The other step I took was adding some developer so that the paper was well below the top of the solution.
Are you sure the clip is clean? Any possibilty it is dripping anything?

I'll add my own question;
I'm curious if anyone knows, is there any benefit to the FB paper holders Nova supplies for the FB processors, or can they be used at all in a Quad, (or Monochrome)?

Aside from this, I'm very impressed with the Nova, it's a superb piece of kit!

eric · Mar 1, 2007

I noticed I get them with RC paper and short dev times. My agitation is up and down. After I noticed I got them I started doing up and down and side to side. Luckily, I have a 16x20 Nova and I can go side to side in a long motion with shorter paper.

Bob F. · Mar 2, 2007

I use the heated version (at 22C) rather than the monochrome one but have never had a problem with uneven development with a variety of developers (but have not tried Cooltone in it yet). I agitate mainly by drawing the sheet almost completely out of the developer and from side to side slowly but almost continuously. I.e: up - down - move sideways - wait 5 or 10 seconds - repeat until done.

How do you mix the developer? I noticed that if I poured the concentrate in and then poured water on top, it did not always mix properly: strangely, most of the developer remained unmixed at the bottom! I now put the water in first and that seems to have solved that problem (I can't for the life of me see why it would not mix the first way, but it often didn't...).

Paper holders: I have one and have never used it after the first half dozen goes. The normal clips work fine with fibre paper and I do not get any marks from the waffle pattern sides of the tank. A big problem for me also is that the paper holders can trap a lot of chemicals which get carried over to the next bath, rapidly exhausting it.

Cheers, Bob.

bdial · Mar 2, 2007

Thanks for the feedback on the holders. I guess I will stick with the clips.
Barry

pentaxuser · Mar 2, 2007

Bob F and others. I have had Cooltone developer in the quad(10x8 size) since not long after our trip to Ilford, courtesy of Simon Galley. No problem experienced but I have never has a problem with either of the two developers used so far( Nova's own + Ilford Cooltone)

My agitation routine seems to be similar to yours.

One of the U.S. printers whose name escapes me but who is/ was a member/subscriber here wrote an article on the Nova Quad several years ago and was convinced that the slot pattern showed up on the print. He contacted Nova whom he alleges denied that any such defect existed due to design. When I look at what happens when the Nova clip is used, there doesn't seem to be any contact between paper and the slot sides as the clip seems to keep the paper suspended in the middle surrounded by liquid.

Trying to recall his article, I don't think this was ever satisfactorily resolved as far as he was concerned.

If whomsoever it was, is still a member/subscriber and can add any comments which helps resolve the issue or just adds information, I'd appreciate hearing what if anything subsequently transpired, as I am sure others would too.

pentaxuser

eric · Mar 2, 2007

pentaxuser said:
One of the U.S. printers whose name escapes me but who is/ was a member/subscriber here wrote an article on the Nova Quad several years ago and was convinced that the slot pattern showed up on the print. He user

I remember that and I think it was Ryuji. He was having these honeycomb problems. I believe he's all RC user. I've had this problem with RC and when I do get streaks, I just stop it down and have a long development in the developing bath. That seems to take care of it. I recall Ryuji's problem was with the honeycomb pattern on the inside of the tank showing up on his prints.

I don't have any problems with fiber in my Nova. My dev times are usually 2 minutes to 3 minutes in Ansco 130.

Matthew Gorringe · Mar 2, 2007

Thanks everyone,
I tried fresh Cooltone developer last night and still had issues with uneven development, despite trying as many different variations on agitation as I could think of. I'm using a devlopment time of 3 minutes and last night was at 24 degrees c.

Looking back on prints from previous nights I don't think the problem is as bad with Dektol and Gallerie as it is with Cooltone and MGWTFB.

I always mix in a jug and poor the well stirred developer in so I don't think that's the problem. The clip is rinsed between prints and the pattern is too regular and not near the clip, in fact it's at the far side of the print and runs horizontally.

It's quite hard to see unless there is an unbroken area of darkish (say ZVII)tone, like a night sky. I tested by exposing strips under the enlarger to get an appropriate dark tone and then developed. I can change the pattern of uneven development by slightly raising the print while moving side to side (making an arch pattern with the clip), but, the development is still a little uneven though not the straight lines I was seeing before. I've also tried spinning the print 180 degrees to see if I can stop the emulsion from touching the honeycomb patterned sides and it does seem to help a little but does not cure the problem.

Tonight I'm going to try developing with the safelight off just incase the honeycomb pattern is focussing the safelight and causing fog. I will also try developing in a tray just so I can see that it's not the Cooltone developer.

Thanks again, it's pretty frustrating but if I need to develop in a tray and use the Nova for Stop-Fix-Fix it will still save space and be useful.

bdial · Mar 2, 2007

Just out of curiosity, are your results anything like this one?

Matthew Gorringe · Mar 2, 2007

No, nothing at all like that.

My marks are regularly spaced lines that run horizantally across the print and are very hard to detect except in an area of continuous dark tone. I wouldn't see it in the tone on the left of your example, it needs to be slightly lighter.

Mine are much fainter/slighter but still noticable.

I'll try to scan an example of a dry print tomorrow.

Ryuji · Mar 2, 2007

eric said:
I remember that and I think it was Ryuji. He was having these honeycomb problems. I believe he's all RC user. I've had this problem with RC and when I do get streaks, I just stop it down and have a long development in the developing bath. That seems to take care of it. I recall Ryuji's problem was with the honeycomb pattern on the inside of the tank showing up on his prints.

I had the honeycomb imprinting problem and it is due to chemical compounds that build up on the inner wall surface. This problem can be solved by taking the chemicals out and thoroughly cleaning the inside of the developer slot with a very thin bottle washing brush (I use one with long handle made for cleaning of burets) and some water. As long as the chemical is not exhausted, the old one can be poured back in and will work fine. Indeed, I usually "clean" the inner surface by using the same brush while the developer is in the slot.

I'm not all RC user, and I do use FB stock, though more frequently in trays. The same problem occurs with both types of paper.

The whole story is here:
Dead Link Removed

However, I am not sure if the problem experienced by Mattg is the same problem as mine, as he doesn't seem to have problems with the imprinting of the inner pattern of the slot, but he instead has straight lines (assuming that Nova still uses honeycomb pattern for the inner surface).

Matthew Gorringe · Mar 2, 2007

Thanks Ryuji,
I cleaned it with a spatula and piece of cloth last night fearing that some metol from the Dektol might have been left on the wall and was causing the Cooltone to become more reactive. I think I could have done a better job though so I'll have another go tonight with a bottlebrush.

I really beleive my problem is related to the honeycomb pattern because the uneven development lines are so regular. I just can't work out how they are causing the problem but hope that the buildup of chemical byproducts is the answer.

Ryuji · Mar 2, 2007

I do hope that your problem is same as mine, as I don't know of other causes of similar symptoms.

When you test the cleaned slot processor, try to tone the prints in a polysulfide toner (e.g., Kodak Brown Toner) or a selenium toner. The uneven development shows up a lot more clearly if the print is toned.

Depending on the developer and other conditions, this problem may recur in the span of a few days to a few months. When you clean the tank and fill in freshly mixed developer, the problem may not appear for months, but as the tank and the solution get used, the problem comes back more frequently. I use my brush to scrub the inside of the developer slot at the beginning of each day, so that I don't have to worry about the problem.

eric · Mar 2, 2007

bdial said:
Just out of curiosity, are your results anything like this one?

Mine look like this when I use RC paper and fast dev times...like 30 seconds. But there are so many factors. Type of developer, temperature, type of paper.

Looks like Ryuji was using fiber paper I must've been thinking someone else.

I try to clean mine as Ansco 130 gets the slot really really dirty.

Ryuji · Mar 3, 2007

eric said:
Looks like Ryuji was using fiber paper I must've been thinking someone else.

I always used some fiber, but I generally use RC more often, depending on the subject matter, as I prefer brighter white base that cannot be obtained with FB. So, there is not much surprise if someone thought I never used FB.

I try to clean mine as Ansco 130 gets the slot really really dirty.

Well, my old homebrew print developers (which gave rise to Tektol developers) have always been ascorbate based, and they tend not to become smelly like many MQ or PQ developers. They also don't make dark tar-like products or other dirty gunks. Plus, one factor I worked on is to improve the "slot life" of the developer, so I tend to leave the developer in there for months and keep replenishing. So, there is no surprise that I see this problem more often than others who are "forced" to clean the slot for other reasons like smell or gunk formation.

Ryuji · Mar 3, 2007

I also think that Monochrome is usable with FB if the paper is relatively flat (such as Agfa MCC, discontinued) but the chance of the paper coming off the clip is higher. Also, many papers are far from flat (notably Forte papers, again, no more) and those are a bit more harder to insert to the slot. So I think Monochrome is usable with FB but not ideal if FB is your main paper type.

Bob F. · Mar 3, 2007

If you sill have the problem after cleaning, see if the lines do line up with the waffle pattern.

From what you say it sounds as if the lines are only at the bottom of the print - i.e. the opposite side from whatever side you put the clip, and only at the bottom and run horizontally? If so, perhaps there is a manufacturing defect and there is some obstruction at the bottom of the slot that is pushing it against the side of the slot at the bottom? Some encrusted gunge in the bottom? Really would like to see a scan...

In my Nova, once the fibre paper has absorbed some developer, it hangs straight down without touching the sides of the slot. From pictures, it looks like the Mono version has the same vertical slots as the heated versions do. You mention that your paper touches the sides so perhaps the unit can be tilted slightly to make sure it does not touch? Obviously, it does not matter if the back of the paper touches.

All very odd...

Cheers, Bob.

pentaxuser · Mar 3, 2007

Thanks Ryuji. That clears it up for me. It seems that the problem hasn't arisien in my case because for various coincidental reasons it just so happened that I have drained and cleaned the slots - also with a bottlebrush - before the gunge got to work.

Now I know I'll make it a regular maintenance task.

Mattg. I hope your problem is resolved.

pentaxuser

Matthew Gorringe · Mar 3, 2007

Thanks again,
I didn't get to clean the unit or do any printing last night (Uni work piling up) but I hope have a go tonight if I can find a long bottle brush after work.

Hi Bob, the Monochrome has curved sides that help it contain the weight of the solutions. The sides are both curved inwards, like a dam wall, and form a V shape so there is a fairly narrow slot at the bottom. I rinsed the unit out just before these lines came up so it's not gunge in the bottom, but possibly on the waffled sides.

Here's a scan, please excuse the quality, this was the bottom of the print and you can see the problem in the sky. This one resulted from agitation by running the clip along the top and occasionally lifting so it's one of the worst examples and one of the first where I can see the problem. This is MGWTFB in Cooltone for 3 minutes at 23-24c. The lines at least have the same spacing as the waffle pattern.

Dave Miller · Mar 4, 2007

When I used a Nova the instructions provided with it stipulated that the paper should be raised and lowered by several inches in a circular motion (think about that) for the first 10 to 15 seconds, and thereafter each 10 seconds. This was to stop the effect that you are experiencing. As I understand the effect, the developer can locally exhaust where the paper touches the sides. If I lowered the paper into the developer and left it to hang still, I got similar markings to those on your picture.

Ryuji · Mar 4, 2007

Matt, the line in the picture is very similar to and it does resemble some of my samples. I think it is caused by the same problem and I expect the problem to go away after cleaning of the developer slot.

Dave, I know their instruction since I read it many times before I wrote my article about Nova Monochrome. I've also made an experimental developer that's very easy to exhaust to see if the pattern is due to developer exhaustion, but the answer is negative for a number of reasons. First of all, the pattern does not appear even with such a exhaustion-prone developer, as long as the slot is cleaned before testing. Also, the pattern does not disappear when prints developed in dirty Monochrome is transferred to a tray filled with a fresh standard print developer and manually agitate vigorously. (Very often, uneven development in tray development goes away if you give good agitation and give extra development time, but this is not the case with the uneven development appearing as pattern discussed here.) Also, once the slot is dirty enough to cause visible pattern, circular agitation does not completely eliminate the problem. It only makes the pattern less noticeable, but if the print is toned, you still see some sort of defects anyway. After all, if the slot is clean and the developer is good, perfect defect-free print can be made with very little agitation, far less than required by the Nova instruction, although I still recommend adequate intermittent agitation for processing of actual work. For all these reasons, I am convinced that the real reason is due to deposition of developer reaction products on the inner wall of the developer slot.

The most effective way to solve the problem is to clean the inner surface with a thin bottle or burette washing brush. I suspect that if you take the developer out of Monochrome and the surface is cleaned with a cloth and a stick or spatula or something of that kind, and then rinsed with tap water from a hose, much, if not all, of the pattern should be gone. I use thin brush because it can be used without transferring the developer to another vessel while scrubbing the surface.

Dave Miller · Mar 4, 2007

Ryuji,

My experience was with a new, clean processor; so my advice remains that if Nova's instructions are followed the problem should not manifest itself. I've read your posts with interest, but cannot relate to them in this instance.

Ryuji · Mar 4, 2007

Nova does not say anything about the need for periodical cleaning of the slot, at least in the manual that came with my unit and everything I could find on their web site at the time I found this problem. Indeed they advertise that Monochrome can be filled with developer and left like that for months without any problem, at least with their own developer, which they admit is a repackaged generic developer. And when I contacted Steve Price, the Nova tech support guy, he denied my findings and the need for periodical cleaning of the developer slot.

In my view, the problem is not in their product but in their instruction, in particular in the omission of the need to clean the slot periodically . I have been saying that this cleaning can be as simple as scrubbing with a brush while the developer is still in place. There is no surprise in you saying that you didn't see any of the problems discussed here (like the one Mattg described, or the one I described in the link above) if the processor is new and clean. The problem appears only after some time after filling the developer slot.

Dave Miller · Mar 4, 2007

In my experience there is no need to clean the slots, the developer can be left in place for months, and good results obtained. My experience is only with the three slot unit, and Nova developer. These became quite black over the year or so that I used it, and in my ignorance I only changed the developer when it became difficult to see the lifted print. I did clean the unit prior to sale, and as you say a few minutes with a bottle brush was all that was required. Whilst I now use rotary drums, I did not make the change because of dissatisfaction with the slot unit. I still use the Nova developer, among others, it's fast acting and has a very good shelf life.
I think it would be helpful if this thread were expanded to ask others to relate their experiences regarding these processers, and the state they allow them to get in, and whether they consider periodic cleaning to be necessary, or indeed desirable.

Ryuji · Mar 4, 2007

Dave, I don't know what is your point. I don't see any need to do customer satisfaction survey here. I'm sure most users of Nova slot processors are generally happy with the products as long as they made the right purchase decision.

It is just that some people experience some form of uneven development and I'm offering a simple, effective solution. The uneven development is a LOT more visible in large dark areas, and also more visible in toned prints, and the degree of the problem depends on a number of factors as I described in previous posts and on my website, so there is no question that some people may not even notice the problem. That you and some others don't have this uneven development problem does not mean this problem does not exist.

Nova Monochrome Uneven Development

Matthew Gorringe

bdial

eric

Bob F.

bdial

pentaxuser

eric

Matthew Gorringe

bdial

Attachments

Matthew Gorringe

Ryuji

Matthew Gorringe

Ryuji

eric

Ryuji

Ryuji

Bob F.

pentaxuser

Matthew Gorringe

Attachments

Dave Miller

Ryuji

Dave Miller

Ryuji

Dave Miller

Ryuji

Nova Monochrome Uneven Development

Attachments

Attachments

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency