Non-Harman Direct Positive Paper?

Jesse K · Nov 9, 2021

I've always used Ilford Multigrade paper for experimental large format, but I'm interested in giving direct positive paper a try. However, it seems like the only option on the market is the 25 sheet pack of Harman direct positive paper. Does anyone know of any similar products or silver-based photo companies that might be able to hook me up?

Thanks!

cramej · Nov 9, 2021

Ars Imago has some but it's more than 1.5x the price of Harman. The Harman DP is really good. Even if I had other options, I would probably keep using the Harman.

Jesse K · Nov 9, 2021

cramej said:
Ars Imago has some but it's more than 1.5x the price of Harman. The Harman DP is really good. Even if I had other options, I would probably keep using the Harman.

I just reached out to them! My hope is that they can supply in bulk. Harman has ignored my requests to purchase bulk quantities, so I've been out of luck.

AgX · Nov 9, 2021

cramej said:
Ars Imago has some but it's more than 1.5x the price of Harman.

It was made by a cooperation of Harman and Ilford.

Its base thus is of PET, with super-gloss surface, which might make you pay that premium.

cramej · Nov 9, 2021

AgX said:
It was made by a cooperation of Harman and Ilford.

Its base thus is of PET, with super-gloss surface, which might make you pay that premium.

I see. Might have to try it someday.

What kind of "bulk" are you talking about here? A couple hundred sheets, thousands? I'm wouldn't be surprised that Harman ignores your requests unless you send them something with 5 digits.

Jesse K · Nov 9, 2021

cramej said:
I see. Might have to try it someday.

What kind of "bulk" are you talking about here? A couple hundred sheets, thousands? I'm wouldn't be surprised that Harman ignores your requests unless you send them something with 5 digits.

I didn't give them a specific quantity. At the moment, I don't need to make an order that large, but in the future I'd consider purchasing a roll. I was just curious about pricing.

Lachlan Young · Nov 9, 2021

Ilford offer a 24.2" x 66ft and 50" x 49ft roll of the DPP paper - done on a made to order basis. These rolls will relate to the production of smaller sheet sizes, so unless you are prepared to order a (from recall - and this was relative to neg working paper, rather than DPP) middling four figure+ sum, they aren't going to be likely to be interested in setting up to cut other sheet/ roll sizes.

AgX · Nov 10, 2021

AgX said:
It was made by a cooperation of Harman and Ilford.

Not quite... My memory failed.
It was a pure Ilford product, only later Harman took over the emulsion for own coating on paper instead.

drmoss_ca · Nov 18, 2021

Galaxy ran a kickstarter for direct positive paper (provided you used their chemistry kit - I just used Ilford MG developer and inverted the scanned paper negatives). I bought a couple of hundred sheets for use as paper negatives in a 10x8 cameras it was supposed to have a speed of 120, but it seemed to be exposed correctly at EI 50, and required pre-flashing to tame the contrast. It worked OK, but I gave it away when I sold the 10x8. I see they still have a site claiming they are making a direct positive 120 roll film, but it looks like it hasn't been updated for about five years.

AgX · Nov 18, 2021

drmoss_ca said:
Galaxy ran a kickstarter for direct positive paper (provided you used their chemistry kit )

For a direct positive paper one hardly needs a special developer. Such rather makes me think of a reversal processing kit.
The respective paper then may have been intended to be more sensitive.

removed account4 · Nov 18, 2021

AgX said:
For a direct positive paper one hardly needs a special developer. Such rather makes me think of a reversal processing kit.
The respective paper then may have been intended to be more sensitive.

they had people from Slavich working with them, and they had a hyper speed paper and probably a dev-bleach-fogredevelop kit, I always wanted one but no one sold it near me and shipping was prohibitive ...
OP look into doing Peroxide Reversals, any paper will work!

Joe VanCleave · Nov 18, 2021

Harman DPP reverses into a positive using a conventional developer/stop bath/fix.

Galaxy paper was a "conventional" negative emulsion with more silver and faster speed. But requiring a non-standard chemistry to produce a direct positive; it was more like photo booth paper.

Efke used to make a direct positive paper that worked in conventional B&W chemistry, was RC based with a semi-matte finish, but was so contrast as to be litho paper, very little gray scale.

IMO, Galaxy was being deceptive in naming their paper "Direct" positive, as it uses nonstandard chemistry.

I wish Harman would release an RC version of their paper, would be a boon to us Afghan box camera users.

removed account4 · Nov 18, 2021

Joe VanCleave said:
I wish Harman would release an RC version of their paper, would be a boon to us Afghan box camera users.

I think you mean RE release! they used to have a RC version of their paper, like kodak had an RC version of their AZO paper ...
love your last ABQ peroxide reversal video
John

AgX · Nov 18, 2021

Joe VanCleave said:
IMO, Galaxy was being deceptive in naming their paper "Direct" positive, as it uses nonstandard chemistry.

"Direct positive" is used in photoengineering in opposition to "reversal process", meaning a material that in one developing step produces a positive.
However even at Gevaert and later at Agfa a similar term "Dia Direct" was misleadingly used for their b&w reversal film, thus Galaxy were in good company...

grainyvision · Nov 21, 2021

The Ars Imago stuff is a really unique "paper". Maybe it's because I'm too young to have experienced using Cibachrome, but to me the price is worth it. It is extremely glossy, more so than glossy RC paper and t has a particularly attractive feel to the base.

I have a print I made about 2 years ago when it first became available. I did a 1m running water wash with it cause it was a throw away test print. I recently found that print in an old box of junk and still looked as good as the day I made it, no hint of bronzing or other issues. It also dries flat with no effort.

I'm sure the price make it a rather niche product, but if you're considering doing direct positive captures in the field, this is absolutely the paper that makes sense to use.

grainyvision · Nov 21, 2021

Also, one thing which would be very interesting, if anyone did secure a bulk roll of the Ars Imago stuff. It likely is thin enough to fit in a roll of 120. Shooting direct positive paper in a 120 camera would definitely be a fun time. I've tried the same with Harman FB but it was too thick

RalphLambrecht · Nov 21, 2021

AgX said:
For a direct positive paper one hardly needs a special developer. Such rather makes me think of a reversal processing kit.
The respective paper then may have been intended to be more sensitive.

The Harman DPP develops nicely in diluted D72 (Dektol),also helping to tame contrast.

removed account4 · Nov 22, 2021

Joe VanCleave said:
IMO, Galaxy was being deceptive in naming their paper "Direct" positive, as it uses nonstandard chemistry.

IDK. kodak used to sell ( and the formulary still does I think ) the kodak direct positive kit. it used non standard chemistry to turn tmx into chromes the same way
galaxy's direct positive kit turned their paper into positives. they were using the same nomenclature that photo companies had been using for generations, its just that
when Ilford started making their paper that just used plain old developer people collectively forgot that the direct positive title was used for years to mean something else..
its too bad galaxy isn't around anymore, photography needs more people making more fun stuff to tease and tempt people who are used to using D to have more fun with A

gone · Nov 22, 2021

They probably don't make much of this. Maybe that's why they didn't get back to you. If you buy a bunch, there's none left for anyone else. That's a great way to alienate your customer base.

gone · Nov 22, 2021

grainyvision said:
I recently found that print in an old box of junk and still looked as good as the day I made it, no hint of bronzing or other issues. It also dries flat with no effort.

I wonder if that was because it was not in the light? I'm just throwing something out here, and have no idea of the archival qualities of the paper. Hopefully it's really good. Freestyle has the Ars Imago 8x10 for $150 US, plus shipping and taxes. That's a lot for 25 sheets of paper, but it is DP.

Non-Harman Direct Positive Paper?

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency