Non-Hardening Fixer - OK for film?

Sino · Mar 18, 2008

Don,

yeah, I'm not one of the most careful people in the world, that's for sure. That's why I try to get some opinions on what to avoid. Looks like it'll be a bit of time consuming -- there's no way for me to heat up large quantities of water, so I'll have to find a trick or use Ian's advice. Thanks guys.

-Sino.

hec · Mar 22, 2008

Kodafix solution

for films I use kodak's kodafix solution (at 1:3), a hardening fixer, comes in a 1qt bottle.

This may be what you are looking for Victor, although I would not disagree with the previous recommendations.
AFAIK there is not much difference in stop baths & fixers from different brands other than "hardening" & "not hardening".

Photo Engineer · Mar 22, 2008

Actually, there seems to be a big difference in some of them.

I placed bottles of unopened liquid concentrate on my storage shelves for later use, and one brand went totally bad before I could even use it. It was in my hands for less than a year IIRC. The others have kept for over a year in sealed containers.

PE

Paul Verizzo · Mar 25, 2008

Photo Engineer said:
Actually, there seems to be a big difference in some of them.

I placed bottles of unopened liquid concentrate on my storage shelves for later use, and one brand went totally bad before I could even use it. It was in my hands for less than a year IIRC. The others have kept for over a year in sealed containers.

PE

I recently dug out my chemicals, last used ca. late 90's. The Kodak Rapid Fixer stock had a few particles of something in it, but works just fine as measured by film clearing.

Bobby Ironsights · Mar 26, 2008

I recommend a hardening fixer.

I'm cheap like borscht. I don't buy anything I don't have to. I paid 15 bucks for my camera. I shoot arista.edu bulk rolled at 21 bucks a roll, I use pool chemicals to make developer and fixer, I use clothespins with pennies glued to them for hanging my film and I hang it two to a clothes hanger.

It's hard to get cheaper than a Univ. student, me and my GF get excited over name brand Kraft Dinner.

I got alot more crap stuck to my film while I hung it up to dry in my bathroom, and more sediment stuck on it from the rinse water, and just alot more garbage in the emulsion in general.

I've had to go to the five dollar gallon powder envelope from the store. It's just the way it is. No matter how cheap I am, I still can't justify false economy.

For these reasons I recommend a hardening fixer.

What I really need is to find a good recipe for a hardener agent to add to plain old pool chemical supply sodium thio to make it hardening fixer.

Photo Engineer · Mar 26, 2008

Bobby;

If you are that cheap, use garden variety Aluminum Sulfate to harden your film and paper. You can get it in 100# bags at most garden stores. However, don't complain to me when the film is worse off with the cheapo variety of hardener.

Actually, I don't recommend this. I'm just surprised no one has brought it up before.

PE

Paul Verizzo · Mar 26, 2008

Bobby Ironsights said:
I recommend a hardening fixer.

I'm cheap like borscht. I don't buy anything I don't have to. I paid 15 bucks for my camera. I shoot arista.edu bulk rolled at 21 bucks a roll, I use pool chemicals to make developer and fixer, I use clothespins with pennies glued to them for hanging my film and I hang it two to a clothes hanger.

It's hard to get cheaper than a Univ. student, me and my GF get excited over name brand Kraft Dinner.

I got alot more crap stuck to my film while I hung it up to dry in my bathroom, and more sediment stuck on it from the rinse water, and just alot more garbage in the emulsion in general.

I've had to go to the five dollar gallon powder envelope from the store. It's just the way it is. No matter how cheap I am, I still can't justify false economy.

For these reasons I recommend a hardening fixer.

What I really need is to find a good recipe for a hardener agent to add to plain old pool chemical supply sodium thio to make it hardening fixer.

Not sure why you want to harden roll film. Possibly sheet developed by hand, but not roll on a reel. No need to handle until washed, then if it gets scratched, I'd look at your handling. I've never used a hardener and I don't think I've ever experienced scratching except with admittedly grossly mishandled product.

Putting hardener in a fixer sounds great, one less step. In reality, it doesn't make sense, at least to me. The hardeners in common usage require a significantly acid environment. Your "simple fixer" now becomes a balancing act of available thiosulfate molecules and the chemistry of the hardener. Then, if you use fiber base paper, the wash times increase and it's harder to get all of they hypo out.

If I were to want to harden an emulsion I would use a separate post-fix bath. Much easier to keep, maintain, or keep for optional use.

Standard acid fixers require, for instance, 15 grams potassium alum and 45cc of 28% acetic acid. So, now you need to buy acetic acid, too. If you add 240 grams hypo and 15 grams sodium sulfite, you have Ansco 201. Use undiluted.

Photo Engineer · Mar 26, 2008

Actually, if you want hard film and want to prevent scratches and abrasions, you should pre-harden before development! It is too late by the time you get to the end of the fix.

PE

Paul Verizzo · Mar 26, 2008

Photo Engineer said:
Actually, if you want hard film and want to prevent scratches and abrasions, you should pre-harden before development! It is too late by the time you get to the end of the fix.

PE

Then why put hardener in the fixer?

I'm presuming roll film here, safely esconced in grooves of the reel.

GeorgesGiralt · Mar 26, 2008

Hi !
Just my 2 cents :
I've sucessfully used non hardening Ilford fixer (Hypam and it's successor) with films from "the big 3" and also with more "obscure products" from Foma, Efke, Era, ADOX or Shanghai...
I doubt you need hardening fixer for film and paper in 21st century ;-)
This is confirmed by the fact that I was unable to get reticulation on recent films by water temp difference.

Photo Engineer · Mar 26, 2008

GeorgesGiralt said:
Hi !
Just my 2 cents :
I've sucessfully used non hardening Ilford fixer (Hypam and it's successor) with films from "the big 3" and also with more "obscure products" from Foma, Efke, Era, ADOX or Shanghai...
I doubt you need hardening fixer for film and paper in 21st century ;-)
This is confirmed by the fact that I was unable to get reticulation on recent films by water temp difference.

Many people report serious hardness problems, even loss of emulsion from the support when they use economy films from 3rd tier manufacturers.

The use of the modern hardeners is very tricky and also patented and so they are seldom used except by the big 3.

PE

Photo Engineer · Mar 26, 2008

Paul Verizzo said:
Then why put hardener in the fixer?

I'm presuming roll film here, safely esconced in grooves of the reel.

Hardener in the fix helps during the wash only. I'm just saying that if you want thorough protection then the hardener should be before development.

Traditionally, the wash was a source of a lot of film and paper woes back in the old days when the materials were just thrown into a washtub and washed with a heavy flow of water.

Actually, many processes used both types of hardeners.

PE

JBrunner · Mar 26, 2008

IMO hardening fixers are not needed for modern films. The only emulsions I use that would be a candidate are the Efke sheet films I use, and even then, it just means you have to be a little careful if you don't. You should be that careful anyway. I use TF4 with good results. OTO there is no reason not to use a quality name brand hardening fixer, if you want, but in regard to the OP, yes, a non hardening fixer works fine.

Tom Hoskinson · Mar 26, 2008

Paul Verizzo said:
Then why put hardener in the fixer?

I'm presuming roll film here, safely esconced in grooves of the reel.

Then why put hardener in the fixer? Beats me! As I've said many times before, it makes more sense to learn how to handle your film without scratching or dinging it.

I develop a lot of sheets of 8x10 Efke 100 and Efke 25 and I never use hardener. The fixer I use is TF-4 (i.e. alkaline and non-hardening).

Bruce Osgood · Mar 26, 2008

Every bottle of Kodak Rapid Fix I've bought has the hardener in a second bottle "B", to be used if you choose. I don't.

I'm also getting away from acid stop and fix. I'm using a freshwater tray and rinse as a stop and home brewed TF3 for a fix with prints and for negs I use TF4 from the Formulary only because I feel their mixing and blending techniques are better than mine. A print I can reprint, a neg is once.

Photo Engineer · Mar 26, 2008

Bruce Osgood said:
A print I can reprint, a neg is once.

Bruce;

This is very good and I agree 100%.

But then why do some use an inexpensive film? That has always perplexed me. If you think they are trouble free, read all of the comments here and on PN to see film floating off support, pinholes, uneven coatings, and on and on...

PE

Sino · Mar 26, 2008

PE,

because of the price. I'd rather take my chances, and keep my fridge full of both film and food. That being said, I am not a professional who depends on the best of results by what he uses, and I am willing to take a couple of failures or more work to do with film that I knew it couldn't be all-good the moment I ordered it.

-Sino.

Uhner · Mar 26, 2008

Photo Engineer said:
But then why do some use an inexpensive film? That has always perplexed me. If you think they are trouble free, read all of the comments here and on PN to see film floating off support, pinholes, uneven coatings, and on and on...

PE

Well, I can only speak for myself – but the reason that I, among other films, regularly use Efke in various formats and versions is that I really like the film. The few cents I save when using Efke is not part of the equation for me.

dancqu · Mar 26, 2008

Photo Engineer said:
Keep the temperature constant throughout if possible.
The drop in temperature in the wash may shock the film
and cause reticulation, or it may slow down the washinng rate. PE

At least for roll films I can see no reason to use wash water
at less than room temperature. Any method of washing
similar to the Ilford 5-10-20 uses very little water. Dan

Photo Engineer · Mar 26, 2008

Try this Dan:

65 to 75°F (18 to 24°C).

Step/Solution
Time (min:sec)

Rinse—with agitation:

KODAK Indicator Stop Bath
0:30

KODAK EKTAFLO Stop Bath
0:30

Fix—with frequent agitation:

KODAK Fixer
5:00 to 10:00

KODAK Rapid Fixer
2:00 to 4:00

KODAFIX Solution
2:00 to 4:00

KODAK POLYMAX T Fixer (1:3)
2:00 to 4:00

Wash:

Running Water
—OR—
Rinse with water
KODAK Hypo Clearing Agent
Running water
20:00 to 30:00

0:30
1:00 to 2:00
5:00

FInal Rinse:

KODAK PHOTO-FLO Solution
0:30

Dry—in a dust-free place

Found here: http://kodak.com/global/en/professi.../f4017.jhtml?id=0.2.26.14.17.18.14&lc=en#proc

PE

Discpad · Mar 26, 2008

No. According to PE, don't use fixer on B&W film after it has been used to fix color (E-6 or C-41) film, as there is a component (contaminant) from color film that dissolves in the fixer that affects the archival qualities of B&W film

I use Kodak Flexicolor C-41 fixer ($32.95 for 25 gallons at B&H) for everything; but I keep separate tanks for B&W & color tank solutions.

srs5694 said:
C-41 fixer also works fine with B&W films. It has the advantage of being less expensive than most B&W fixers. (I believe TF-4 is in the same ballpark, price-wise.) If you do your own color processing, you can cut down on the number of bottles in your darkroom by using C-41 fixer for both B&W and color. I believe the C-41 fixer is non-hardening, though.

Photo Engineer · Mar 26, 2008

I missed that one.

Yes, phenyl mercapto tetrazole present in C41 films, and the high iodide (up to 10%) emulsions, can allow the fixer to retain silver in B&W films, or rather it will exhaust the fixer much much faster!

PE

Discpad · Mar 26, 2008

PE, isn't there something in E-6 film as well that contaminates fixer?

Photo Engineer said:
I missed that one.

Yes, phenyl mercapto tetrazole present in C41 films, and the high iodide (up to 10%) emulsions, can allow the fixer to retain silver in B&W films, or rather it will exhaust the fixer much much faster!

PE

Photo Engineer · Mar 26, 2008

BigBertha said:
PE, isn't there something in E-6 film as well that contaminates fixer?

IIRC, yes, but more importantly for all color films is the high iodide, and the high silver level which exhausts fixer fast.

PE

Non-Hardening Fixer - OK for film?

Sino

hec

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JBrunner

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Non-Hardening Fixer - OK for film?

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