Non-Hardening Fixer - OK for film?

Even for those really flimsy off-brand ones I've been using?

I'm getting sick and tired (literally )of mixing powdered chemistry and as our daughters due date approaches (4/9), uncomfortable with airborne particles in general. Consequently, I am looking for a good liquid fixer available in the USA. Any recommendations would be appreciated.

Thanks

Victor

You should be all right with just about any liquid rapid fixer from a reputable source.

Kodak Rapid Liquid Fixer is a good one to try with all films. With a non-hardening fixer you are limited to films from Ilford, Kodak and Fuji IMHO. If you want a good non-hardening liquid fixer, TF-4 is quite good.

With care, you can use non-hardening fixers with most any film. The operative word is "with care".

PE

Uhner said:

You should be all right with just about any liquid rapid fixer from a reputable source.

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Great. So I guess I should be good so long as I avoid "Honest Nick's SuperFIX" from my neighbor, Nick, 2 doors down. Thanks!

Photo Engineer said:

Kodak Rapid Liquid Fixer is a good one to try with all films. With a non-hardening fixer you are limited to films from Ilford, Kodak and Fuji IMHO. If you want a good non-hardening liquid fixer, TF-4 is quite good.

With care, you can use non-hardening fixers with most any film. The operative word is "with care".

PE

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I have been using alot of Forte, Foma and Efke with Diafine and will probably use a hardening fixer with those and will probably use a combo of TF-4 w/ PMK and other developers for Kodak and Ilford films.

Hardener is not that big a deal as long as you treat your film gently.

hey victor!

sprint systems rapid fix is great!
no hardener all liquid, 2:8 film and 1:9 paper.

they are a site sponsor, and have an online store/
will ship it to you


john

Jersey Vic said:

I have been using alot of Forte, Foma and Efke with Diafine and will probably use a hardening fixer with those and will probably use a combo of TF-4 w/ PMK and other developers for Kodak and Ilford films.

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I always use a non-hardening fixer (Tf-4) with Forte, Foma and Efke films (rollfilms and sheet films) with no problems.

If you scratch or ding any of these emulsions (or embed dirt into the emulsion) during handling/processing, a hardening fixer will not help you.

Seconding John's recommendation of Sprint Systems' fixer. Their stop is nice, too. Very inoffensive smelling.

C-41 fixer also works fine with B&W films. It has the advantage of being less expensive than most B&W fixers. (I believe TF-4 is in the same ballpark, price-wise.) If you do your own color processing, you can cut down on the number of bottles in your darkroom by using C-41 fixer for both B&W and color. I believe the C-41 fixer is non-hardening, though.

Jersey Vic said:

Great. So I guess I should be good so long as I avoid "Honest Nick's SuperFIX" from my neighbor, Nick, 2 doors down. Thanks!

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I thought Nick made his Superfix with hardener, at least since his brother in law began working at the docks in the late seventies.

I like TF-4, and you can pick it up off the shelf at B&H. You can mix Kodak Rapid Fixer without the hardener. I've also liked Zonal Pro Rapid Fixer, which you can make with or without hardener.

Ron--My understanding is that the hardener only protects the film when wet. If one is fixing and washing one's film carefully (as in, not in a rotary drum washer or something of that nature), is there any advantage to a hardening fixer?

I have been using Ilford Rapid Fix (diluted 1:4)...it is a non-hardening fix in liquid form.

I think many of us long-time darkroom-using photographers become insensitive to low levels of fixer/stop bath fumes. You might consider exploring the no-to-low-odor stop bath and fixer combinations for the new nose in the house.

Vaughn

You do not need a hardening fixer with modern Ilford or Kodak films. They have hardeners built in to the emulsion. I'm pretty sure Ilford, and possibly also Kodak, recommend alkaline non-hardening fixers (such as TF-4). Just can't lay my hands on the actual reference.

I'd go with TF-4.

I can see the confusion starting already. There are two chemicals commonly in use as photographic fixers, sodium and ammonium thiosulfate. Either of these can be compounded into alkaline or acidic fixers. Alkaline fixers are ALWAYS non hardening fixers because the agent used to toughen the gelatin (potassium alum??) will work only in an acidic environment. Acidic fixers may or may not contain hardeners. An optional, separate hardener can be added to acidic fixers as necessary.

Typically a hardening fixer is not required for all but a few films. I've used non-hardening fixers with Forte films - no problems. Same goes for Foma films. Ilford, Kodak, and Fuji films don't need it at all. Efke might, and it is recommended, but probably not if you're careful.

When would you need a hardener? Only if you process under higher than normal temperatures or indulge in a B&W reversal process using sulfuric acid and potassium permanganate for a bleach bath. Otherwise, don't bother. It is of no practical value.

I'll second that recommendation for C-41 fixer. Been using it for a few years now. I like the results and I like the price. It is also 1/5 the price of TF4 from The Formulary or anywhere else for that matter. It is only slightly acidic, coming in at around 6.5 on the ph scale, has almost no smell, works fast, and lasts a long time.

Should you use a hardening fixer? Not really necessary unless there is a specific need for it.

A hardening fixer cannot hurt Kodak, Fuji or Ilford films, but it is rather useless as they are already quite hard. OTOH, a hardening fixer can work well with some other films on the market. The new hardeners were patented long enough ago that the patents have expired, but the technology to use them in coating is very complex and therefore has not been implemented by other than the big 3 (AFAIK).

Kodak makes their hardening fix with the hardener in a separate bottle. Its use is optional.

Use of a hardening fix helps prints more than film under ordinary conditions, but at one time when film was just thrown into a tub or sink and washed, there were scratches. So, hardening fixers became rather normal for all products, but are now optional for products from the big 3.

Alkaline hardening fixes have been sold by Kodak going back to the 50s and 60s. You can build alkaline hardening fixers, but you cannot use alum.

BTW, treatment with some chemicals after use, will reverse Alum hardening, but no known method outside of the lab can reverse the new incorporated hardeners. The reversing method can also dissolve skin which is a protein as well, and this method is rather dangerous.

A hardener in the process at least helps reduce swell if that is what you want, but at the same time it slows fixing and washing.

Kodak (AFAIK) recommends no specific fixer pH and as noted above, hardener is optional. Color images however, are best kept either neutral or at pH 4..5, no lower.

More than you ever needed to know!

PE

Completely off topic here... I hope you will be posting your first photos of baby Jersey Vic as soon as she arrives!!

Congratulations, Vic!

Victor, I can thoroughly recommend Ilford HYPAM non hardening fixer. It's best bought in a gallon just for around $23 in MN anyway. I imagine B+H would carry it. Mixed 1:4 for film and 1:7 for paper (two bath fixing method) it will last a llllllllllllooooooooooong time.

Andy

I usually use a non-hardening fixer with modern films. For films that may need some hardening, I use color film stabilizer (a formaldehyde hardener plus Photo Flo) after washing.

May I ask: I've read again and again that if you use non-hardening fixers with brands such as EFKE, Foma or Lucky you should be careful. What should I pay attention at?

-Sino.

Sino, EFKE (Adox) films are the only films where a hardener would probably be really useful. These films aren't hardened like modern Ilford, Kodak, Fuji etc, I've also used Lucky and Foma again with no problems in a non-hardening fixer.

Even the EFKE films have some hardener incorporated in the emulsion now and are far better than about 30 years ago, I'm not sure when the hardening was improved/added. I use EFKE PL25 in sheet film and fix in normal Hypam/Ilford Rapid Fixer 1+4 with no problems but I keep the temperatures of dev, stop, fix and washing within 1°C because the major problem is reticulation with softer emulsions.

Ian

So since I intend to use EFKE/Adox film [136/50 ISO] with Ilford Rapid Fixer, such as you, what I should pay attention to according to what I have read so far is:

1. Keep the temperature steady between developing/stopping/fixing. Is washing included? I wash my films with fresh tub water using a small hose inserted at the center of the spiral, running slowly. The water tends to be rather cold, compared to the 20o I usually develop/stop/fix at.
2. Be careful when the film is wet in order to not scratch it/bend it.
3. Hang it with plenty of weight, which should not fall at the center of the film, and,
4. Let it dry naturally overnight.

Sounds like a plan. Am I missing anything I should pay attention to?

-Sino.

Keep the temperature constant throughout if possible. The drop in temperature in the wash may shock the film and cause reticulation, or it may slow down the washinng rate.

PE

Sounds fine Sino, if your wash water is cold let the temperature drop very slowly after fixing, rinse with water at the same temperature then just place the dev tank in a bowl with the cold water so it cools down, add a little of the cold wash water every now and again until the temp has dropped down.

It's sudden changes in temperature that cause reticulation.

Ian

If you are processing roll film, then a non-hardening fixer is ok since the whole sequence from developer to fix doesn't involve handling the film. The same would be true of sheet film in some sort of tank, like a Jobo, where no handling is required. However, if you take sheet film out of the tank to wash it, then use a hardening fixer.

Film scratches very easily. The only time I didn't use a hardening fixer, I paid for it in scratches. Everyone is different, of course, but you did ask for opinions.