No Stabilizer C41 kits

[Kilgallb]

I noticed freestyle is selling a C41 kit minus the stabilizer. They call it a C41s kit and claim in most cases the stabilizer is not needed.

Has anyone tried the kit or know about if this claim is true?

 

[Lorenzot]

Yes they are correct, stab is no longer needed on modern emulsions. modern "stab" is just a final rinse/photoflo as the anti fungal properties are now built into the film

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/the-definitive-word-i-hope-on-color-stabilzers.89149/

 

[MattKing]

I don't believe that is what Ron Mowrey indicated in that thread.
I believe that what he was saying in that thread is that very old films required formalin in order to react with left over couples and also the gelatin to form substances that resisted both coupler induced degradation and the bug (fungus) attacks.
Modern, post ~2003 C41-films included revised couplers that didn't require formalin in order to resist coupler induced degradation, but were still vulnerable to fungus. The post-2003 final rinse was brought in to provide a photo-flo like surfactant, and the necessary biocide.

 

[koraks]

@MattKing is correct. There is, as far as I know, no biocide 'built into' the film and I doubt it's even possible to do that effectively and have a film stock that still works.

 

[Lorenzot]

I don't believe that is what Ron Mowrey indicated in that thread.
I believe that what he was saying in that thread is that very old films required formalin in order to react with left over couples and also the gelatin to form substances that resisted both coupler induced degradation and the bug (fungus) attacks.
Modern, post ~2003 C41-films included revised couplers that didn't require formalin in order to resist coupler induced degradation, but were still vulnerable to fungus. The post-2003 final rinse was brought in to provide a photo-flo like surfactant, and the necessary biocide.

Okay fair enough, my wording was off. But this is what cinestill also say on their website as well:

"If you are shooting modern color negative film, a "stabilizer bath" is not necessary. Up until the mid 90's, the final rinse bath in the C-41 process was called a "stabilizer bath," since it contained Formaldehyde or Formalin. Modern color film emulsions were designed so that one-hour photo labs wouldn't need haz-mat training for formaldehyde and have built-in dye stabilizers and hardeners that are released through our simplified 2-bath process"

I have heard from multiple people that stabilizers aren't necessary anymore in c-41 films

 

[koraks]

But this is what cinestill also say on their website as well:

Which aligns perfectly with what @MattKing and before him PE said, and is NOT about biocides.

I have heard from multiple people that stabilizers aren't necessary anymore in c-41 films

Stabilizers, no. But the final bath in color processing can serve 3 distinct functions:
* Dye stabilization
* Protection against biological agents
* Prevention of drying marks & opt. dust (antistatic action)
The reformulation of films only addressed the first item. The other two remain unchanged since the birth of color film about 100 years ago...

 

[Lorenzot]

Which aligns perfectly with what @MattKing and before him PE said, and is NOT about biocides.


Stabilizers, no. But the final bath in color processing can serve 3 distinct functions:
* Dye stabilization
* Protection against biological agents
* Prevention of drying marks & opt. dust (antistatic action)
The reformulation of films only addressed the first item. The other two remain unchanged since the birth of color film about 100 years ago...

Ah right i see, all makes sense now. i should do more research before commenting next time​

 

[halfaman]

I noticed freestyle is selling a C41 kit minus the stabilizer. They call it a C41s kit and claim in most cases the stabilizer is not needed.

Has anyone tried the kit or know about if this claim is true?

It is the Cinestill powder chemistry, stabilizer is not included but reccomended in the instructions. Rudeous comment recently that the biocide present in the stabilizer is considered dangerous (by inhalation) in powder form and the reason why it is not included in the kit.

 

[Bikerider]

Whatever they add or subtract from the C41 mix the stabilizer also assists to resist the fading of the dyes used to make up the colour element. I did not use any kit apart from the Agfa one until after Agfa went out of business then started with Digibase or Tetenal. Most of my Agfa negatives have colour degraded/faded due to passage of time although kept in archival conditions. So yes I would say a stabiliser is still necessary. It is well known and recorded that the only colour dyes that are reasonably 'permanent' are Kodachrome and Cibachrome, both of course have now vanished into history.

 

[foc]

I think sometimes the names, stabilizer, and final rinse, get mixed up.

Stabilizer was the chemical with formaldehyde and was used in one hour C41 processing up until the early to mid 2000s.
Final rinse doesn't have formaldehyde and was used in one hour C41 processing after the mid 2000s

What is final rinse sometimes gets called stabilizer, all very confusing.

 

[AgX]

Yes, I repeatedly hinted here at Apug at the fact that in film-manufacture and .-processing the term "stabilizer" is used in several meanings.

I myself have counted 5 so far.

 

[AgX]

And read "different meanings" also as "different chemicals".

 

[Tom Kershaw]

I have always considered stabilizers as the solution with a formalin component, whereas 'final rinse' is the more modern approach. I use a final rinse after washing my film. I suppose there is also the "washless" process used by some minilabs, which would require the film to be stabilized.

 

[AgX]

Both treatments you hinted are are called at the industry "stabilisation" and thus I already counted them in.

 

[koraks]

Whatever they add or subtract from the C41 mix the stabilizer also assists to resist the fading of the dyes used to make up the colour element.

No. Not since ca. 2000 in any case, when C41 dyes were re-engineered to eliminate the necessity for formalin-stabilization. Today there's nothing in 'stabilizer' (more accurately: 'final rinse') that does anything with dye stability.

 

[Tel]

I've been shooting film since 1959. When I shot it with any serious intent, in the 1970s and 80s, my go-to film was always Ektachrome because the colors were relatively stable. I don't remember ever having the expectation that color print film (or color prints) would hold their colors for decades. When did we start expecting it to last forever?

 

[foc]

Here is an example of a Kodak product being called stabilizer when it is final rinse.

https://www.pakor.com/kodak-stabilizer-c-41-replenisher-16-x-5l

Read the specs " 5L FLEX FINAL RINSE & RPLR Kodak catalog number: 8673170"

So you can see how confusing it can be.

I remember back in the early 2000s when I was buying a Fuji C41 Processor (FP363) as asking the engineer where was the stabilizer tank. I was told it was now a final rinse tank as it didn't use formaldehyde.

 

[mshchem]

C41 final rinse from Kodak and Fuji has a biocide to keep microbes from feasting on the gelatin. I believe that the EU led the adoption of Miconazole, anti-fungal. Color film is silver free after processing needs something.

 

[Helios 1984]

C41 final rinse from Kodak and Fuji has a biocide to keep microbes from feasting on the gelatin. I believe that the EU led the adoption of Miconazole, anti-fungal. Color film is silver free after processing needs something.

I don't know for Fuji but the Kodak Final Rinse bacterial / fungal "antibiotic" agent is a mixture of Chloromethylisothiazolinone and Methylisothiazolinone 0.3%

 

[mshchem]

I don't know for Fuji but the Kodak Final Rinse bacterial / fungal "antibiotic" agent is a mixture of Chloromethylisothiazolinone and Methylisothiazolinone 0.3%

Miconazole is a trivial name for,

• (RS)-1-(2-(2,4-Dichlorobenzyloxy)-2-(2,4-dichlorophenyl)ethyl)-1H-imidazole

Whatever that means. Needless to say the Industry leaders are still treating the film before it is dried.

 

[mohmad khatab]

It is the Cinestill powder chemistry, stabilizer is not included but reccomended in the instructions. Rudeous comment recently that the biocide present in the stabilizer is considered dangerous (by inhalation) in powder form and the reason why it is not included in the kit.

My dear brother (a perfect man)
CineSteel has to lie kind of, she's kind of right.
From a chemical point of view, it is almost impossible to prepare (stablizer) in the form of a powder, because it consists mainly of liquid solutions and cannot be dried,
Is there a formula for a powder that can be dissolved in water to become a staplizer? The answer, I think, is that there is no such formula as far as I know.
If there is such a formula, I hope colleagues will tell me about it.

 

[Helios 1984]

Is there a formula for a powder that can be dissolved in water to become a staplizer? The answer, I think, is that there is no such formula as far as I know.
If there is such a formula, I hope colleagues will tell me about it.

Hexamine powder, as found in Unicolor C-41 kits & others, when it decomposes in water forms Formaldehyde which has the dual function of dye stabilizer (on pre-2003 emulsions) and anti-fungal agent. However, this solid form of CH₂O can leave dry marks on negatives which is the reason why prefer Kodak Final Rinse.

Note: I’d use Hexamine powder for pre-2003 films as it’s easier to get than Formalin.

 

[mohmad khatab]

Hexamine powder, as found in Unicolor C-41 kits & others, when it decomposes in water forms Formaldehyde which has the dual function of dye stabilizer (on pre-2003 emulsions) and anti-fungal agent. However, this solid form of CH₂O can leave dry marks on negatives which is the reason why prefer Kodak Final Rinse.

Note: I’d use Hexamine powder for pre-2003 films as it’s easier to get than Formalin.

Thank you very much for the response.
Actually, I'm afraid I didn't understand very well.
Can you predict, for example, what the formula of this powder will look like if we want to prepare it?
I mean . What is the possible formula for preparing this bag, which will then be dissolved in water to become a solution (stablizer). ?
I will be very grateful to any colleague who can help me in this matter.
God bless you.

 

[Helios 1984]

What is the possible formula for preparing this bag, which will then be dissolved in water to become a solution (stablizer). ?
I will be very grateful to any colleague who can help me in this matter.
God bless you.

Hi Mohmad,
You can purchase 99% pure Hexamine powder for cheap, you need 5 grams per 1L water to make the stabilizer. Again, It may leave dry deposits on the negatives but it’s better than no stabilizer at all. Also, take note that this solution doesn’t have wetting agent properties, so it might be a good idea to add a drop of Photoflo. Given the choice, I’d much prefer Kodak Final Rinse or Ron’s stabilizer recipe ( 1L Photoflo 200 solution + 10ml Formalin 37% ) but again you have to work with what have.

regards.