no more naptha in LA county

Where in the constitution does it say an employer has a right to posion or
cripple his employees, or a contractor has a right to poision his clients or
their children, or a big agribusiness the right to leave laborers dead in the
fields (happens a lot more often than you might imagine)? I work with an
older gent whose gone thru a helluva lot of chemotherapy recently, and who invented one of the most infamous EPA-banned substances ever. Little did he know that his esoteric laboratory sample would be turned into
something which has caused millions of birth defects rampant to this day.
Last year our own classroom put about 700 hundred contractors thru EPA
mandated lead safety certification. A handful griped. Every single one was
grateful afterwards. Most classes had one or two attendees who had already suffered from lead poisioning themselves, or whose kids were poisioned. (It's real good for your business when you owe 250K in personal medical bills). Once these folks learn to work clean and are properly equipped they're productivity typcially goes up 40% to 200%.
They're blowing their cheapo competition away. It's like an arms race and
they wonder why on earth they weren't doing things this way all along.
Some of them have hired twenty or so new employees just in the last six
months. The regulations are a minor nuisance, but are also a catalyst to
dramatically improved productivity and getting out of the stone age. And
more and more nowadays, clients absolutely demand it. Would you want
noise and lead paint dust in your living space?

Ahh, but Pete, we do not disagree. We want responsible government that gives us responsible (and Constitutionally legal) oversight of environmental matters.

That about sums up my opinion but adds that we should not do this from the POV of fear of the unknown which in this and some other cases is "chemistry".

PE

Photo Engineer said:

Ahh, but Pete, we do not disagree. We want responsible government that gives us responsible (and Constitutionally legal) oversight of environmental matters.

That about sums up my opinion but adds that we should not do this from the POV of fear of the unknown which in this and some other cases is "chemistry".

PE

Click to expand...

I was thanking you for seeing my side Sorry about the confusion.

DREW WILEY said:

Where in the constitution does it say an employer has a right to posion or
cripple his employees, or a contractor has a right to poision his clients or
their children, or a big agribusiness the right to leave laborers dead in the
fields (happens a lot more often than you might imagine)? I work with an
older gent whose gone thru a helluva lot of chemotherapy recently, and who invented one of the most infamous EPA-banned substances ever. Little did he know that his esoteric laboratory sample would be turned into
something which has caused millions of birth defects rampant to this day.
Last year our own classroom put about 700 hundred contractors thru EPA
mandated lead safety certification. A handful griped. Every single one was
grateful afterwards. Most classes had one or two attendees who had already suffered from lead poisioning themselves, or whose kids were poisioned. (It's real good for your business when you owe 250K in personal medical bills). Once these folks learn to work clean and are properly equipped they're productivity typcially goes up 40% to 200%.
They're blowing their cheapo competition away. It's like an arms race and
they wonder why on earth they weren't doing things this way all along.
Some of them have hired twenty or so new employees just in the last six
months. The regulations are a minor nuisance, but are also a catalyst to
dramatically improved productivity and getting out of the stone age. And
more and more nowadays, clients absolutely demand it. Would you want
noise and lead paint dust in your living space?

Click to expand...

You're still arguing environment.

No, of course I don't want cancer at work, lead paint in my schools, pesticides in my water, mercury in my tuna, trichlorethylene in my soil, dirt roads soaked with diesel fuel, acid rain on my car, etc, etc etc.

I also don't want a government agency that can arbitrarily decide that I should be relieved of all of my money, possessions, and property without going through the proper channels of due process as mandated by the Constitution. No matter what the EPA has started out as, that is what they have become, and it's wrong.

I am always amazed at the people that mention the US Constitution when it is apparent they haven't read it or really understand what it does and does not say.

The Constitution specifically charges the government to "Promote the General Welfare of the Public". It also gives the federal government the responsibility of Regulating Interstate Commerce.

The moment pollutants from Pennsylvania cross the state boundary into New Jersey, the federal government must intercede.

Perhaps we should all live in the shadow of a mountain of Coal Ash, waiting for the opportune time to come washing down and burying our hometowns?

Or maybe A nice,healthy Nuclear Power plant built just upwind of your home? Who needs gubmint regulashuns?

(Just took a break to peel garlic ... yumm). More to the specific air quality
regulations behind this thread ... I know all the foibles about this for decades back, a lot of counterproductive chuckholes in the road; but eventually it has gotten from point A to B. Just this morning I ordered a
rush truckload of compliant outdoor finishes. Yeah, right in the middle of
winter. Very impractical stuff it would seem because it costs about 75
dollars a gallon or more (or way way higher for true marine finishes).
But I can hardly keep it in stock. European stuff, finally coaxed into this
country by those damned "regulations". Took some education, but basically in terms of real world use it's the most cost-effective stuff one can buy. I applies dramatically better, dries faster, looks wonderful, etc,
so dramatically reduces labor expense. Plus it lasts way way longer than
the cheaper stuff. Do the math and over time clients start understanding its the most economical kind of product available. But the high-tech Euro
mfg wouldn't even look at the US market until regulations coaxed things
into a realistic market. (It's made in the Midwest now that the market has
grown so heavily - so everyone wins).

Bill;

PA would most likely BE polluted by NJ if it were not for the prevailing winds which pollute the Atlantic from NJ. I live about 10 miles from the Ginna Nuclear plant which did have a leak, but again was upwind. Lucky me.

But then maybe having read the Constitution and memorizing it in its entirety in HS is creating a force field around me!

Think on this. Your health and welfare was mandated by the "gubmint" when it decreed a nationwide cessation of the manufacture of incandescent bulbs in favor of CFLs for environmental reasons (mercury in the smoke from power plants which will be reduced by use of the CFL bulbs. Well guy, CFL bulbs introduce just about the same amount of Mercury into your home if they are broken and I have had several break. You see, it seems that they break often when the fail! Nice eh? Anyhow, now the EPA suggest double bagging CFL bulbs and disposing of them as hazardous waste in case they are broken or in case they break.

They also advise opening all windows in a room where one has broken and airing it out as well as removing all dust and debris in a safe manner (define safe).

Now, I know some will not believe this but it was reported by Brian Williams on NBS nightly news about 4 months ago.

This also begs the issue of all of the old fluorescent bulbs out there right now. The big long ones in every store and mall. But at least they need not be in my kitchen over the stove and in my dining room over the table, right? Oh, yes they do! The "gubming" protecting my health and welfare says so!

Without recourse from me!

PE

wblynch said:

I am always amazed at the people that mention the US Constitution when it is apparent they haven't read it or really understand what it does and does not say.

The Constitution specifically charges the government to "Promote the General Welfare of the Public". It also gives the federal government the responsibility of Regulating Interstate Commerce.

The moment pollutants from Pennsylvania cross the state boundary into New Jersey, the federal government must intercede.

Perhaps we should all live in the shadow of a mountain of Coal Ash, waiting for the opportune time to come washing down and burying our hometowns?

Or maybe A nice,healthy Nuclear Power plant built just upwind of your home? Who needs gubmint regulashuns?

Click to expand...

You make excellent points. The general welfare clause and interstate commerce clause very likely do give the fed the authority for some level of environmental oversight as it pertains to interstate affairs. I am willing to concede that. The scope of what may be an interstate affair may become grey at certain points but again, that is what courts are for. But my other points remain; no section of the Constitution gives the feds or any other level of government the power to create an agency who's authority usurps the basic fundamental principles of the Constitution or the Bill of Rights, most importantly the denial of due process. And as that is the structure of the EPA, as they currently exist they remain an unconstitutional organization.

Pete;

Bill is willing to quote the parts that support him and ignore the parts that support you. I mentioned "due process" in my post as well I believe.

PE

Well, the Firearms, Tobacco and Alcohol bureau can take your illegal still or other items.

I am sure the Food and Drug Administration can take your illegal or unlicensed pharmaceutical production systems.

I know the Secret Service can take your money printing equipment and counterfeit money. (and speaking about money, we can all see what happens when banking and finance regulations are eliminated)

I guess we could be like China and allow Baby Formula makers to spike it with Anti-Freeze, well, just because it's cheaper than making real food.

If you are in a business regulated by the EPA and you do something stupid, you should expect the agency to confiscate those illegal items or substances. I have friends in Dry Cleaning and you can bet they know all the rules and regulations and stick to them.

Just because a wealthy developer cares more about his own pocketbook than the public's right to a clean environment does not give him the right to do whatever he likes with "his" land. I haven't really heard of any cases where the EPA has taken land. Prevented certain activities, sure but not Taken.

I agree that the light bulb is just a stupid issue, mainly because you can generate your own electricity and waste as much as you like.

It goes without saying that any organization can be stupid from time-to-time but for someone to have the expectation that they can do something unlawful and not have their stuff confiscated is just dumb.

Besides all this... if the EPA was really unconstitutional, don't you think the Tea-Bag rabid Republican party would have gotten it killed off by now?

I don't know a single manufacturer who's against more stringent regulation (except the energy industry per se). It's the wild patchwork of them which is the headache, because so many redundant products have to be tailored to each individual geographic case. But when it comes to
lightbulbs there's a glaring contradiction. Nobody has tested what the long
term effects on human health of these damn things is. Yeah, the neo bulbs are horrible for display, but they also cause a lot of eyestrain. I can't
stand them; but what are they going to do to kids over the decades. Nobody knows. So here's an instance where maybe more regulation should intercede, namely health or safety studies. Same kind of thing like
back when mfg pulled methylene chloride from paint strippers as a suspected carcinogen and substituted a known carcinogen for awhile.
I asked an Air Resources Board official about an analogous solvent issue,
involving making a product smog compliant by removing a naptha and
substituting benzene and toluene: he simply replied, We don't give a damn about caner - that's the EPA's responsibility - we just care about
smog. So yeah, there a lots of anecdotes and chuckholes along the way,
but over the long haul a vast amount of progress has been made too.
But some of the folks in the EPA I've known very well personally certainly
weren't anything like Gestapo, and their work was often very dangerous.
Illegal chemical are imported just like narcotics, and just from the casual
exposure to some of these things during field investigations, these inspectors tend to die young. We have a saying around here in this University town: There are three careers where people die at 52: crop dusters, industrial painters, and research chemists. I'd add a fourth - EPA
agents.

Actually this research chemist and most of his associates seem to be doing better than average. Maybe it is something homeopathic!

Our average age is getting to be pretty far up there and the average problem is not chemistry related.

So, lets remove that one from your list.

PE

Bill, the key here as has been mentioned over and over is "due process". The EPA (like many government agencies) has been granted authority that goes beyond the limitations of government as outlined in our Constitution.

We have a rigid standard of policies and procedures that must be followed in organized society. Those standards and policies are clearly outlined in the Constitution. They must be equally applied to every level of government, and to every agency, no matter the stated purpose. The federal government under the flag of "environmentalism" does not automatically qualify for special privileges because they are doing good things.

Nobody is stating that people should be allowed to get away with things that are unlawful. The ONLY THING I AM ARGUING is the importance of due process.

I don't know why you need to resort to hyperbole and political insults. I am just stating facts.

None the less I will take the opportunity to draw some comparisons with an agency I am more familiar with. Take for example the ATF as you mentioned. The ATF has the absolute authority to determine if a newly manufactured firearm meets the "standards" for what is considered a "sporting firearm" for public sale. But these "standards" are not released so manufactures have no way to know what does, and does not, meet the "standard". They must submit designs (which often are the result of costly R&D) to the ATF for individual review. The ATF will reply with a letter stating whether or not their design has been approved or not approved. They do NOT have to (and never do) disclose why a particular firearm may be disqualified, and it is not uncommon for extremely similar designs from different manufacturers to be judged differently. So is that due process? Have the manufacturers been treated fairly? Do they have the ability to contest the decision? No, no, and no. In that regard, are they operating outside of the Constitution? Absolutely. And such is the problem with federal agencies having unmitigated power and lack of judicial oversight.

Likewise, say you are half way through the construction process of a new office plaza. You have all the proper permits from the township, zoning boards, and state DEP. Along comes the EPA and decides that land that was surveyed and approved by the state DEP is actually wetlands and because it's within, I don't know, say 200 feet from the parking lot, you are in violation of EPA regulations (NOT law, law can only be decided by Legislature). They can now indefinitely shut down your operation costing you, and your customer, untold sums of money.

That is not some "rich landowner" who is greedy, and it it certainly NOT due process.

Anyway ... the EPA folks I work with at the moment are 98% invovled in
education, just helping people work safer, understand the rules, and yes,
smirking right along with them over some of the sillier stipulations. They do give out field advice and formal warnings; but there's been only one real fine given out in this area in the last two years and it was a flagrant violation. These laws were put into effect decades ago when George Bush
senior's dog got lead posioning at Camp David and he started worring about his kids and grandkids too. The grace period volutary guidelines have been out there a long long time, so nothing arbitrary in this instance.
And yeah, we all know about a tiny handful of rogue EPA agents involved
with the mob and monopolizing hazmat handling, but that's mostly big govt contract work with big dollars involved. No different from the small
percent of FBI agents in cahoots with local heroin kingpins. But if you're
one of those ardent constitutional rights proponents over private property
rights etc, you'd probably get along well with a family member of mine who is probably the most famous (or infamous) appellate lawyer in the
country on this subject at this moment. We love him, but... like many families we have members on both extremes... and when those holiday
"discussions" start heating up, well, I grab the backpack with the 8X10
and head out for a few hours.

Lets discuss the searches of 85 year old ladies' colostomy bags, huh? That might be a fun discussion of due process!

Good for yuks, right? Talk about undue search (and seizure?). Did anyone keep the contents of the bag? Hah!

PE

Also Bill, the Secret Service has the authority to confiscate counterfeit money and printing equipment because the Constitution specifically enumerates the Legislative branch the authority "To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;" Which, interestingly enough, is still questionable. The Secret Service for many years fell under the Treasury, which I believe is under the Executive Branch, not Legislative. It is now under DOHS, which is also Executive. But I will not claim to be an absolute expert in this area.

BTW, they still have to follow the procedures of due process to obtain a warrant, confiscate your equipment and counterfeit money, and you are still entitled to a fair trial.

I don't know about the colostomy bag thing... might be more appropriately discussed under an alternative film developer thread.... But a lot of unfortunate stereotypes here and confusing of different agencies. It can
get pretty complicated. Again, within walking distance of my office are
certain Bay wetlands which are being restored, but between state, federal, and the merging city interests, there are actually twelve different
agencies in charge. There's a lot of one-upmanship, conflicting priorities,
and cases of one agency suing another. A backpacking pal of mine is the
engineer in charge, and he figures this will be tied up in the courts for at
least twelve years. ... Ironically, these are all pro-enviro agencies like park
districts, Coastal Commission, etc, but each with their own definition of what is best. Even the level of the tide could hypothetically determine who
is in charge at a given hour. But stuff gets done anyway and the jogging
trails etc are getting built. On the other hand, you've got folks like my
family member going all the way to the Supreme Court defending the rights of private property, sometimes on behalf of persons who have already been dead for twenty years. In Calif he's classified as a fanatical
right-winger. In Texas he's viewed as a meddling California liberal. The
cases themselves tend to be incredibly convoluted. He just won a massive
case here against the Coastal Commission which has been brewing for a
long time. Then he lost one in New York when someone put up a fence
around their porch to prevent their child from getting bit by rattlesnakes,
and were convicted of interfering with a wildlife (rattlesnake) migration
route. As we all know, law and common sense are not always equal.

Just responding to some of the earlier posts, I myself live in California, and I must say, a lot of those things mentioned as illegal are still REALLY common where I am, such as burning leaves and other yard waste, and all sorts of powerful, toxic, and environmentally hazardous chemical share still sold.
Although, to burn leaves and such, you need to get a permit from the fire department, which is really easy, but I live in an area with a high fire danger, so if you aren't registered as having the permit, they can see the smoke and it will be treated as a forest fire, and you will be heavily fined if it wasn't.
Just my two cents.

I have lived in California all my life, I'm 68 years old. I can remember as a child in Los Angeles in the early 1950's not being able to see the mountains on unbelievably smoggy days. From historical accounts (which I can't pinpoint exactly) the Indians who lived in the basin described the smoke to the Spaniards who came into the region in the 18th century. It is a well documented problem.

Ron is right, the "ecological" legislation to protect us from ourselves has had a detrimental effect on jobs. You need so many permits to open a business that many have thrown up their hands and said they are leaving, or aren't going to expand in California. The parent company of Carl's Jr. has given up on expanding anymore in the state. It takes nearly a year to get all the permits to open up one restaurant. Here in San Diego the Eco-Nazis are holding Fourth of July Fireworks hostage because they want an ecological survey done before and after the event. It has been proven that there are no detrimental effects from the fireworks.

Jesus had it right when He said that they will strain at a gnat and swallow a camel. I'm not against protecting the environment, I'm just against the idiocy of this mish-mash alphabet soup of needless governmental regulations which do nothing but destroy jobs and take away our freedoms.

One more thing: Don't light up a smoke on the beach, you will be cited. (Sig heil!)

m

mhcfires said:

I have lived in California all my life, I'm 68 years old.

Click to expand...

So you are dead?!?

Don't you mean "I have lived in California all my life so far, I'm 68 years old."

mhcfires said:

One more thing: Don't light up a smoke on the beach, you will be cited.

Click to expand...

A great step in the right direction! No more cigarette butts, cigar butts, and empty cigarette packages in and on the sand!

Having survived several gigantic forest fires myself, and having fought others, I'd say a lot of those draconian rules are essential if you care for your life or property at all. When I started high school two-thirds of my first year clasemates were homeless due to a 600,000 acre fire. California brush is engineered to burn and then repropagate. It's just not engineered for mindless suburban sprawl or idiots throwing ciggies out the car window. There's a reason Smokey the Bear has held his job for so long. Same here in the city. We get disastrous fires from illegal solvent storage, illegal fireworks mfg., illegal old wiring, unvented clothes dryers etc. Over the last thirty years I've seen several entire mfg building outright
explode due to solvent abuse. One such explosion shattered windows clear at the other end of the Bay, fifty miles away. Originally all that chem
storage was in big tanks quite aways from town, but again, dumb urban
encroachment, right where residences and schools have no common sense
belonging.

Try Lighter fluid

I use Electrical Cleaner, it works very good.

Everclear, 190 proof. There is no substitute.

DREW WILEY said:

Having survived several gigantic forest fires myself, and having fought others, I'd say a lot of those draconian rules are essential if you care for your life or property at all. When I started high school two-thirds of my first year clasemates were homeless due to a 600,000 acre fire. California brush is engineered to burn and then repropagate. It's just not engineered for mindless suburban sprawl or idiots throwing ciggies out the car window. There's a reason Smokey the Bear has held his job for so long. Same here in the city. We get disastrous fires from illegal solvent storage, illegal fireworks mfg., illegal old wiring, unvented clothes dryers etc. Over the last thirty years I've seen several entire mfg building outright
explode due to solvent abuse. One such explosion shattered windows clear at the other end of the Bay, fifty miles away. Originally all that chem
storage was in big tanks quite aways from town, but again, dumb urban
encroachment, right where residences and schools have no common sense
belonging.

Click to expand...

And all of the above are state, county, and local problems, and should be regulated as such. No argument from me there!