No more baryta? So what!?!

Knowing the people who make digital and photo papers at Kodak, I can say that even though the digital papers might appear complicated, the photographic papers such as Endura surpass them all in complexity! And I mean by orders of magnitude.

Sorry, but knowing the formulas of several of these, I can authoritatively state this as fact.

PE

Paul Verizzo said:

So is the baryta coating then coated with the emulsion, or is the emulsion included in the coating? Or maye some papers one, some papers the other? I reading things both ways.

Depending on the answer, it would give rise to some previous posts saying it's a whitener, some saying its the emulsion surface regardless of whitening, etc.

My assumption has always been it's a base to the emulsion and it just happens to have perfect qualities insofar as costs, lifespan, durability, etc.

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The baryta layer was not coated with the emulsion nor was the emulsion included in the baryta layer.

A Kodak made baryta coated fiber based paper in cross-section looked (past tense since they are no longer manufactured) like this:

A raw paper base - fibers with chemical addenda, made to be smooth or with a texture, may or may not have been tinted and/or optically brightened. The raw base was wound into rolls and sent on to the next operation (baryta coating).

Baryta coating -- in the early 1900's up to 6 layers, each coated separately, from the 60's or so, usually one or two layers. Baryta layer composed of barium sulfate, gel (a binder), and additives including dyes and/or optical brighteners if used. The coated paper was usually calendered after baryta coating (a separate operation) to improve the smoothness, sometimes was calendered between baryta coatings. Rolls of coated, calendered baryta paper were sent to the next operation (emuslion coating -- Kodak called it sensitizing).

The light sensitive layer (emulsion) was coated on top of the baryta coating.

Sometimes an overcoat (gel) was applied over the emulsion.

If matting agent was used (to decrease gloss), it was added to the emulsion formulation prior to coating (so it would be incorporated in the emulsion layer). Barium sulfate (the precipitated pigment), ground glass, glass beads, starches, etc were used as matting agents.

So it is correct that the baryta layer was a "base" for the emulsion. However, it didn't just happen to have the properties mentioned but was the pigment of choice since it had those properties - white, chemically inert (non-reactive with the emulsion), resistant to heat and light fading.

I hope this isn't too confounded - let me know if there are still questions.

Aren't some Inkjet papers made with Baryta? If so, wouldn't that enhance the chances of baryta base paper being continued. The technology that is? Doesn't this enhance the chances of having this media around for silver emulsion papers also?

"Baryta coating -- in the early 1900's up to 6 layers, each coated separately, from the 60's or so, usually one or two layers. Baryta layer composed of barium sulfate, gel (a binder), and additives including dyes and/or optical brighteners if used. The coated paper was usually calendered after baryta coating (a separate operation) to improve the smoothness, sometimes was calendered between baryta coatings. Rolls of coated, calendered baryta paper were sent to the next operation (emuslion coating -- Kodak called it sensitizing)."

This may be the answer to my question. When did the use of baryta become common in photographic papers? I remember the papers prior to WWII as being less bright in the highlights and a quick look at some of my old prints confirms this. Is it because baryta was not in use in most papers of the time?

This quote -- Around 1880, after several decades of experimentation, the combination of gelatin and the white pigment barium sulfate emerged as the most satisfactory substratum for photographic papers -- can be found in Care and Identification of 19th Century Photographic Prints by J.M. Riley.

The baryta coating operation at Kodak started up in 1900.

The question about old papers being less bright is more difficult to answer. It could be that old prints have yellowed with time and appear less bright now. Older papers may have been less bright to start with due to the whiteness/brightness of the pulps in use at the time. While barium sulfate is very white it does not have a high hiding power so the tint of the raw base shows through the baryta layers.

dphill said:

Wow! Great information about papers and baryta. Thanks everyone!

So to those who are in the know... do you recall any non baryta papers that were notable and/or popular? Say in the 1960s and '70s?

I pick that time period because I was in the darkroom then and I might hear a name that might be familiar to me.

Dan

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I'm certainly not in the know about using non-baryta papers but I can tell you some of the Kodak non-baryta coated papers that were available.

Since the 1940's, the Kodak convention was to identify non-baryta coated papers with the letter A. In the 1960's and 1970's you could have found
Ad-Type A, Kodabromide A, Ektamatic A, Polycontrast A. These were lightweight papers that since there was no baryta layer could be folded without cracking. There were others but they were used for instrumentation, recording papers, Photostat, etc.

There are always exceptions -- actually A meant no coating at all. For examlpe, Mural R, a single weight paper, had no baryta coating but did get a gel coating on the raw base prior to emulsion coating.

Kodak and Haloid both made Ad-Type papers for the military. These were very thin so that we could pack lots of paper into thin boxes, and the processing was rapid. They were also rather inexpensive. After use, we used to burn the prints and recover silver nuggets from the ashes. I forget the designation.

PE

Photo Engineer said:

...Schoeller makes about 4 surfaces in FB, but most manufacturers only buy glossy and matte...

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Eleven years later, Ron, do you have (or can you get from industry contacts) an update on that situation? Does Schoeller still offer as "many" choices to darkroom paper manufacturers? And, among those four, or whatever reduced number are available today, are any free of optical brightening agents? My Internet searches lead only to Schoeller baryta paper with receiver coatings intended for digital printing, not any designed for sale to sensitized product manufacturers.

Thanks for any insight you can provide. Kit hasn't been around PHOTRIO since 2016, but I would welcome whatever he could contribute to this revived discussion too.

No baryta papers means the end of silver gelatin printing for me. It would complete the transition to all historical processes for my work.

No updates. Fotoimpex stocks some baryta for hand coatings, but there is little market for it here. Of course, it is still used for coatings by several companies.

I have been rather out of this picture.

PE

Back when I first became interest in photography (in the 1960's), most paper manufacturers offered a wide variety of textured papers. Mostly I used Luminos (probably made by Kentmere) brands as they were much less expensive than Kodak papers, though for a few things I used Kodak papers. The "silk" texture was often used for wedding photographs as well as for many school photos

. I used quite a bit of the silk textured paper back then, but ultimately found Kodak's "J" texture to be my favorite, along with "A". "J" was a lustre, fine grain texture similar but not identical to a glossy surfaced paper when dried without ferrotyping. "A" was also a fine grain lustre paper, but was on a lightweight paper base, able to be folded without the emulsion cracking. Both surfaces, along with many other very useful surfaces have been discontinued for decades, and I miss many of them. But today's materials are very fine and I can be content with them.

As for baryta coated papers, today's resin coated papers are quite nice and I can use them for most purposes with less water consumption in processing and faster, flatter drying. RC papers in their early stages weren't so nice. I'm content that we still have some very nice silver based photo products available at reasonable prices.

As such things in life go stock up as they say
I have a stash of 11x14 baryta paper I got from ilford on special order several years ago. This let's me make all the pop collidion paper I want without worrying...