No more baryta? So what!?!

dphill · Mar 22, 2008

PE made a comment in a recent post about baryta's future being questionable.

My question is if baryta goes away will it make a difference?

Will we settle for "next best" or are the qualities of baryta irreplaceable?

I guess I'm asking, "If baryta disappears, so what?"

(It's kind of an open discussion.)

Dan

David A. Goldfarb · Mar 22, 2008

Well, you can make nice prints on other papers, but they won't have the surface of the fiber based papers we've been using for years.

Fortunately, baryta is finding a market among inkjet printers, with offerings from Harman, Hahnemuhle, and Ilford (the one that makes mainly inkjet papers).

Photo Engineer · Mar 22, 2008

From my sources, baryta (FB) papers represent a slowly diminishing total of all photo paper production WW. At this time it is probably less than 20%.

Most of this is due to the diminishing fresh water supply requirements for FB paper vs RC paper.

Thats about all I can say.

PE

zenrhino · Mar 22, 2008

Gah.

Losing FB would be the last straw that drives me into d1git@l.

Captain Bedworthy · Mar 22, 2008

If by baryta you do indeed mean FB, I agree. But happily Efke have filled this gap.
Keep buying it and the market will drive itself.

Bobby Ironsights · Mar 23, 2008

Baryta is just a paper whitener. A chemical additive. It's cheap, plentiful, and added to some of the nicer ordinary writing papers, and I don't see supplies running out any time soon, so I think your fiber based paper is safe.

zenrhino · Mar 23, 2008

PE, as I understand it, baryta acts as a protective layer for the emulsion? How easily scratched is paper not coated with this stuff?

David A. Goldfarb · Mar 23, 2008

Baryta the chemical is widely available, and there are FB baryta photographic papers being made, but the issue that PE is talking about is that there are only one or two manufacturers of baryta photographic paper base right now, and they are making a lot less of that photographic paper base than they used to. Photographic paper base has to be able to stand up to coating, wet processing, and can't have any chemicals in it that react with the emulsion, so it's not as if any paper that uses baryta as a brightener can serve as a base for silver gelatin photographic paper.

Jed Freudenthal · Mar 23, 2008

David A. Goldfarb said:
Baryta the chemical is widely available, and there are FB baryta photographic papers being made, but the issue that PE is talking about is that there are only one or two manufacturers of baryta photographic paper base right now, and they are making a lot less of that photographic paper base than they used to. Photographic paper base has to be able to stand up to coating, wet processing, and can't have any chemicals in it that react with the emulsion, so it's not as if any paper that uses baryta as a brightener can serve as a base for silver gelatin photographic paper.

Baryta is for reflection purposes, it is not a brightener. A brightner is based on fluorescence, and is used in some photographic papers. Around 1980, the production of baryta papers was way down. Much less than it is now. But the demand forced the production back. Kodak produced Elite paper for some time. It is now much easier to buy baryta paper than in 1980. But the possibility of buying via internet plays an important role too. Internet sales have modified the whole picture anyway. Not just for baryta paper.

Jed

Photo Engineer · Mar 23, 2008

Ok, baryta (barium sulfate) is commonly available in many forms from many sources. It is used as a 'milkshake' and 'enema' before CAT scans and X-Rays to enhance images.

It is also coated in gelatin on inert paper to produce FB baryta photo papers. This process once involved adding tints and is no longer done. Baryta paper is probably produced by only 3 companies world wide do to the need for a complex process called calendaring which can be "hot press" or "cold press". In this process, the paper + baryta is compressed into a smooth mass with the desired surface such as glossy, rough, matte, silk (no more) and others.

At the present time, baryta production has been undergoing a rather rapid decline since the advent of digital due to the fact that digital inks generally don't like to go onto the baryta type papers. They need a new type of surface. So, most of these companies want to get out of something that "no one wants anymore". That comes from a major producer of baryta paper BTW.

So, WW production is down to about 20% or less of what it once was, and is still declining. As it declines, the machinery to produce the paper is scrapped. So, buying FB paper is not going to solve the problem if companies like Ilford just cannot buy the paper from their source anymore.

It consumes more water in manufacture, and it consumes more water in processing, therefore it is becoming less attractive to all phases of analog print production.

Oh, to answer some other comments, it lies beneath the emulsion layer and increases the reflectivity and sharpness of the photograph (depending on surface). It whitens but does not brighten unless brighteners are added. It offers no significant protection to the emulsion itself, and if manufactured improperly can even degrade the integrety of the image by becoming brittle and flaking off. This can result if the baryta is not made with the right proportion of gelatin, humectants and hardners, or if it is not calendered properly with the right heat and pressure.

PE

Michael Kadillak · Mar 23, 2008

Photo Engineer said:
Ok, baryta (barium sulfate) is commonly available in many forms from many sources. It is used as a 'milkshake' and 'enema' before CAT scans and X-Rays to enhance images.

It is also coated in gelatin on inert paper to produce FB baryta photo papers. This process once involved adding tints and is no longer done. Baryta paper is probably produced by only 3 companies world wide do to the need for a complex process called calendaring which can be "hot press" or "cold press". In this process, the paper + baryta is compressed into a smooth mass with the desired surface such as glossy, rough, matte, silk (no more) and others.

At the present time, baryta production has been undergoing a rather rapid decline since the advent of digital due to the fact that digital inks generally don't like to go onto the baryta type papers. They need a new type of surface. So, most of these companies want to get out of something that "no one wants anymore". That comes from a major producer of baryta paper BTW.

So, WW production is down to about 20% or less of what it once was, and is still declining. As it declines, the machinery to produce the paper is scrapped. So, buying FB paper is not going to solve the problem if companies like Ilford just cannot buy the paper from their source anymore.

It consumes more water in manufacture, and it consumes more water in processing, therefore it is becoming less attractive to all phases of analog print production.

Oh, to answer some other comments, it lies beneath the emulsion layer and increases the reflectivity and sharpness of the photograph (depending on surface). It whitens but does not brighten unless brighteners are added. It offers no significant protection to the emulsion itself, and if manufactured improperly can even degrade the integrety of the image by becoming brittle and flaking off. This can result if the baryta is not made with the right proportion of gelatin, humectants and hardners, or if it is not calendered properly with the right heat and pressure.

PE

It is easy to make casual assumptions and cast a legitimate concern into the recycle bin as trivial. It is much more challenging to do the leg work so you actually know what you are talking about and the subject can be put into the proper perspective. Thank God we have PE willing ready and able to regularly set the record straight here. Left to ourselves we would be more miss than hit.

Photo Engineer · Mar 23, 2008

Thanks Michael, but I have my blunders too as well as blinders. I try to keep my head above water and my answers honest and factual.

Here is a fact I forgot above.

Most paper manufacturers require a minimum order of a given paper support. That order is based on the 'threading factor' of the equipment. You essentially have to sacrifice an amount of paper that is about twice the path length of the machine to start it up and shut it down, before and after the good paper is produced and one good roll is about 1.5 meters wide by 1.5 Km (yes, KM) long. The minimum order is about 5 - 10 rolls for us mortal humans who don't have a factory to make our own. The same BTW, can be said for film support.

So, you see that this is difficult and expensive. It is almost impossible to do at home. You need a set of high pressure heated rollers to press the drying baryta into the paper fibres, otherwise you get a very dull fuzzy surface. This latter is done in the trade to get a super rough effect.

I have samples of all of the papers and most of the film supports currently in production including RC as well, and have coated on them. I am grateful to the companies that supplied the samples. These were the coating factories, BTW, not the paper manufacturers.

PE

David Grenet · Mar 23, 2008

Photo Engineer said:
... with the desired surface such as glossy, rough, matte, silk (no more) and others.

PE

So where does the paper for the silk surface Slavich paper come from?

PHOTOTONE · Mar 23, 2008

David Grenet said:
So where does the paper for the silk surface Slavich paper come from?

Well, obviously there are paper sources from within the former USSR, Russia that are either unknown to others, or are unavailable to other manufacturers, or Slavich texturizes the paper themselves.

Photo Engineer · Mar 23, 2008

PHOTOTONE said:
Well, obviously there are paper sources from within the former USSR, Russia that are either unknown to others, or are unavailable to other manufacturers, or Slavich texturizes the paper themselves.

Yes, AFAIK, there is both a Ukranian and a Russian paper manufacturer. Their products are largely unknown in the west. In fact, there are companies in India and China as well, but even so the 'exotic' finishes are largely unknown.

Schoeller makes about 4 surfaces in FB, but most manufacturers only buy glossy and matte. In fact, some manufacturers only buy glossy and when they want to make matte they add methyl methacrylate beads to the overcoat and/or the emulsion to matte up the final product.

BTW, silk in FB is rather hard to produce for technical reasons, I understand. So, it may be that the surface is being added afterwards, but that too has a price in that you can fog the paper. IDK for sure. I don't remember ever using an FB silk finish paper. I would have to check.

PE

Paul Verizzo · Mar 24, 2008

Thank God we have PE willing ready and able to regularly set the record straight here

I fully agree!

The only disagreements I've had (reading, not participating) is on matters of chemical purity. I'm of the (Patrick Gainer) "works just fine" school.

So, yes, PE/RM is a major asset to us mere mortals.

BTW, Wikipedia claims that baryta is barium hydroxide. Now, I thought that weird - and reactive - right off the bat, but hey, what do I know? After I did a search last night for definitions of baryta, I got everything from the sulfate molecule, to "any of several barium compounds."

Intuititively, barium sulfate certainly seems the logical option.

And thanks again, PE!

Photo Engineer · Mar 24, 2008

Thanks Paul.

Barium salts are among the most poisonous there are. Fortunately, barium sulfate is so insoluable that we can drink a milkshake of it with no harm, as it does not go into the body. Barium Hydroxide is not so good for people and should not be present in Barium Sulfate used for paper making. Baryta, technically, is the gelatin/barium sulfate layer that is put onto the paper.

At Kodak, we had a Baryta Division, and a Baryta machine, etc. etc. This is now all gone.

BTW, on chemicals, I say "Use what works for you". I am just not much of a risk taker and get less so with every passing year because picture taking is getting so hard for me. So, if I spend a day lugging a camera around, especially a 4x5, I don't want to risk developing in something mixed with a tablespoon of something from the grocery store. Thats my reasoning Paul. And, having spent my entire working life in a photo lab, I have seen lots of things go wrong. So, it is a matter of percentages, IMHO.

PE

papermaker · Mar 24, 2008

Perhaps I can provide some background on some of the issues being discussed. My frame of reference is how baryta coated papers were made at Kodak.

The term baryta was derived from barites or barytes, the crystalline mineral ore of barium sulfate. In the context of photo paper, baryta (or baryta coating) was used to describe barium sulfate which was coated with a gelatin binder and other additives onto raw base stock. The barium sulfate was prepared by a precipitation process (eg. from barium chloride or barium carbonate) and the resulting wet paste was referred to as blanc fixe. Precipitated barium sulfate is a chemically inert, very white pigment which has excellant resistance to color change from heat and light. The main function for photo paper is to provide a smooth, white layer which covers the paper fibers and prevents the emulsion coating from penetrating into the raw base.

Kodak fiber based B&W papers sometimes had no baryta coating, sometimes had one baryta coating, or sometimes had multiple baryta coatings dependent on the specific product. There were only a very few exceptions where baryta coated paper was not calendered after coating. The calendering was referred to in a post as being a cold or hot pressing. Kodak baryta coated papers were calendered at what could be called room temperature, actually the temperature of the roll of coated paper which depended on how long it had been stored prior to calendering. It seemed to have been implied in an earlier post that the calendering was involved in the process for providing the surface textures. This is true only for glossy paper which received the highest level of calendering. Other Kodak textures, like fine-grain, tweed, tapestry, were produced in the raw base (calendering on these papers was at a lower level so as not to destroy the texture). The Kodak silk texture for fiber based papers was produced by embossing a smooth, baryta coated paper. In the embossing operation, an hexagonal pattern which was engraved on a steel roll was imprinted into the baryta surface.

Barium sulfate had one other use in Kodak fiber based B&W papers. It was often used as a matting agent by adding it to the emulsion. This was the same barium sulfate used for baryta coating.

This is a very brief overview but I hope it helps to clarify some of the aspects of baryta and baryta coating.

Photo Engineer · Mar 24, 2008

Kit (Papermaker) is the authoritative source and I thank him for correcting my errors.

Some of my errors arise from working too much with RC and not enought with FB. The RC had the silk finish embossed into the final finished RC support, and the matte was done using methyl methacrylate in the paper overcoat or emulsion.

I have also apparently confused the different papers (hot and cold) with the making operation at EK rather than with the final finishing steps. (Again, correct me if I'm wrong Kit. I sure do remember those heated rollers, especially on hot summer days.)

Thanks Kit. I'm sorry that your very fine lessons didn't stick well in my memory.

PE

dphill · Mar 24, 2008

Wow! Great information about papers and baryta. Thanks everyone!

So to those who are in the know... do you recall any non baryta papers that were notable and/or popular? Say in the 1960s and '70s?

I pick that time period because I was in the darkroom then and I might hear a name that might be familiar to me.

Dan

Paul Verizzo · Mar 25, 2008

One (maybe) last question on this topic

So is the baryta coating then coated with the emulsion, or is the emulsion included in the coating? Or maye some papers one, some papers the other? I reading things both ways.

Depending on the answer, it would give rise to some previous posts saying it's a whitener, some saying its the emulsion surface regardless of whitening, etc.

My assumption has always been it's a base to the emulsion and it just happens to have perfect qualities insofar as costs, lifespan, durability, etc.

Steve Smith · Mar 25, 2008

I have a question which is slightly off topic but seems to fit:

Film emulsions come in a variety of colours, usually a light grey with a hint of beige, green, purple, blue, etc. Paper emulsions are always white.

What is giving the colour to the emulsion on the film? Or what is keeping the paper emulsion clear (I assume) to let the paper white show through?

Steve.

tim_walls · Mar 25, 2008

Good question. I had always assumed it was a combination of (a) anti-halation layer, and (b) the 'dyes' (or whatever it is) added to make the film emulsion panchromatic... But you know what they say about assumptions!

I look forward to hearing the answer .

Photo Engineer · Mar 25, 2008

In answer to all of the above:

1. FB paper is normally /Paper/Baryta/emulsion/overcoat/ - but it can be /anti curl/Paper/Baryta/undercoat/emulsion/overcoat and all variations in between. Some papers even have 2 emulsion layers. These include polycontrast papers.

2. Paper emulsions are made from Silver Chloride and Silver Bromide emulsions which are either white or pale yellow. They contain little silver and low levels of sensitizing dyes and thus appear white or cream in color.

3. Film emulsions are made from Silver Bromide and Silver Iodide. Depending on the percentage of iodide the emulsion can be yellow or reddish orange. Sensitizing dyes coupled with a high level of silver tend to make the emulsion gray in color or yellow gray. Trimmer dyes are added to improve sharpness and prevent halation. These can vary from green to orange to gray themselves.

PE

nworth · Mar 25, 2008

The eastern European countries do not seem to have the concerns and restrictions on water use and contamination that we have - at least not yet. That may mean that traditional photographic paper will continue to be made there, and perhaps in Asia, for a while. But the market is dropping, and no one can continue to make a paper if there are too few buyers to support it. There may be a need for some photographic paper R & D here. It should be possible to make even better papers that are enviromentally friendly and economical to make. But the photo paper manufacturers that are left are all pretty small, and they can not be expected to do much here. Digital printing paper took a massive R & D effort to make an acceptable product (those papers are really quite complicated), but the market is huge.

No more baryta? So what!?!

dphill

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