No IR effect With Rollei IR 400 and 89b Filter

Rui.Cardoso · Jul 3, 2006

Hello All,

This is my first post... I found this site a week ago and up to now, I'm quite pleased with what I found here!

I've been using Maco IR820c 120mm for some time with a B+W 092 (89b) filter with good results. When my stock of Maco ran out I started testing with Rollei IR 400.

For my first tests I used the same B+W 092 filter, shot in the same conditions and metered the scenes using my hand-held spot meter the same way I did for the Maco. I tested using ISO 25, 12 and 6. The film was developed with Xtol 1:2 for 13 minutes (20º celcius).

Altough I have some frames that are correctly exposed and developed (most of them between iso 12 and 6), I'm hardly getting any IR effect! Blue/cloudy skyes come out nicelly, but the film renders green foliage much the same way a normal b&w film would when exposed through an orange or red filter.

I saw in the Rollei brochure that they recomend an 88a filter instead of the 89b I'm using, they seam too close to make a difference, but I'll try an 88a if I can find one... Before going for another filter, I'll also try to overexpose the film a little more as recomended in the Rollei brochure.

Other than these, does anyone have any ideas or experiences to share?

Best Regards,

-Rui Cardoso

dancqu · Jul 4, 2006

Rui.Cardoso said:
Hello All: I saw in the Rollei brochure that they
recomend an 88a filter instead of the 89b I'm using,
they seam too close to make a difference...

The Rollei may have much heightened blue blue-green
sensitivity. I've not my B+W book handy but suggest
the 88a may further attenuate the short wave
lengths. Have you the specs on those two,
the 88a and 89b? Dan

nworth · Jul 5, 2006

By using an 89B fiter, you have eliminated just about everything except the IR from the exposure. What you see is a record of the IR reflectance of the scene at the time of the exposure. The green sensitivity of the film does not matter, since the filter eliminated the green. It may just be the season. The mix of red and green chlorophyl in plants varies with the seasons, water, soil conditions, etc. I don't know the reflectance near IR spectrum of cholophyl, but there is a possibility that the film does not respond to its peak. (Kodak IR sensitivity extends all the way out to 1 micron, I understand that the Rollei stuff only goes to about 900nm.) If this is the problem, you might try a stronger IR filter (e.g. 87C) and longer exposures.

Willie Jan · Jul 5, 2006

I am using the hoya 72 IR filter (720 nm) with the new rollei IR film with good results at also 6-12 asa with wood effect.
Before that i also used the 820c with the same good results (see www.foto-art.nl) with that filter.

I hope this is of some help to you.

Rui.Cardoso · Jul 5, 2006

Hello all,

Thanks for the answers...

I think the problem is not the season because I also shoot some Maco IR820c (i did not shoot both films side by side, but they where shot in similar conditions) and I get good results with it.

I did some research and it seams that altough the B+W 092 is listed as an #89b it lets in more visible ligth than the Hoya R72 or the Cokin 007 that are also listed as #89b's.

The B+W 092 letts in the frequencies from 665nm on. It seams that the Rollei IR film is much more sensible to the frequencies from 665nm to 700nm than the Maco 820c.

I'll try a friend's Cokin 007 to check if the problem is really with the filter. Later on i might get an 88a but first I want to make sure that the B+W is really ianpropriate for this film.

I'll let you know of my findings after testing!

Best Regards,

-Rui

Dave Miller · Jul 5, 2006

Willie Jan said:
I am using the hoya 72 IR filter (720 nm) with the new rollei IR film with good results at also 6-12 asa with wood effect.
Before that i also used the 820c with the same good results (see www.foto-art.nl) with that filter.

I hope this is of some help to you.

I am also using similar setting to Willie. There are several other threads on this subject, so it is worth doing a search.

colrehogan · Jul 5, 2006

I have a couple of rolls of this 120 film to test, but haven't gotten around to it yet. Hopefully I will soon.

dancqu · Jul 5, 2006

Rollei IR 400. I suppose that 400 is an ISO.
How do you suppose it would do looking through
a dark yellow or standard orange? And it's effective
ISO doing so?

Is 400 an usual speed for IR film? Dan

Dave Miller · Jul 6, 2006

dancqu said:
Rollei IR 400. I suppose that 400 is an ISO.
How do you suppose it would do looking through
a dark yellow or standard orange? And it's effective
ISO doing so?

Is 400 an usual speed for IR film? Dan

The 400 ISO rating refers to it's unfiltered speed. When used as an IR film it's speed drops to around 12 ISO.

Petzi · Jul 6, 2006

The Rollei IR only has sensitivity up to 750nm, so the wood effect can't be as strong as with the Maco IR 820c, especially if your filter passes some visible light.

Also note, the characteristic curve of Rollei IR is quite straight, as opposed to the curve of Maco IR 820c.

Rui.Cardoso · Jul 18, 2006

Hello All,

I tried the Cokin 89b, the film looks a stop slower with this filter than when using the B+W 092 (12 vs 25 ISO), there is a sligth IR effect, but nothing compared to the strong IR effect I had with the Maco IR 820c and the B+W 092.

I'll have to buy a new filter in order to continue, I'm considering the Hoya R72 or Heliopans 715 or 780.

I'm still confused with the filter specs and the real transmittance of each of this filters: the Heliopan 715 is classified as an 88a and the Hoya R72 is classified as an 89b, but looking at the transmittance graphs of each filter ( examples here: http://www.eazypix.de/ir/filter/filter.html ). It seams that the Hoya should have a stronger effect than the Heliopan.

The Heliopan 780 is clearlly the strongest, but i wonder if it won't be too strong for this film.

Has anyone compared these filters?

Thanks all,

-Rui Cardoso

Ole · Jul 18, 2006

No help here - I use a Heliopan 695 filter, and set the camera's meter between 200 and 400. It gives me great results with a Bessa-L with 21mm Color-Skopar lens.

If I try that film in a different size, I'll probably bring along the Bessa-L to use as a light meter - it's that good.

Dave Miller · Jul 18, 2006

I have used the Heliopan 780 with this film, but it seriously reduced the film speed, requiring 10 sec exposures in bright sunlight. The 715 is the recommended filter and gives me a speed of 12 ISO Your are correct that the IR effect is much reduced when compared to the MACO or Kodak films, but I don't think there is much to be done about that. What we have is a film with extended red sensitivity rather than a useful IR film.

Rui.Cardoso · Jul 18, 2006

Thanks for the replies.

Dave, do you have any examples of images done with both filters?

Best Regards,

-Rui Cardoso

Dave Miller · Jul 19, 2006

No I don't. The test images I should to determin the film speeds with each filter weren't worth keeping.

Rui.Cardoso · Sep 6, 2006

Hoya R72

Hello All,

I finnaly tried an Hoya R72 Filter and I got some wood effect. The film speed will go down to 6 or even 3 (developed in Xtol 1:2) with this filter.

Still there's something in the tonalty of this film that I do not like when comparing it with the old Maco. The Rollei is clearly sharper when developed in the same conditions, but the Maco just had some subtelties in the tones I'm not beeing able to get with the new stuff...

Any new ideas regarding development of this film, did anyone try the Rollei developers?

Regards,

-Rui

JLP · Sep 6, 2006

Did not try the Rollei Dev but have used HC110 and didn't like the results.
Nothing compares to the HIE so i will be shotting 35mm when i want IR.
Notice that Freestyle now list the Rollei as Near IR!

Fotohuis · Sep 6, 2006

Here you have some tested data:
Dead Link Removed

and here a latest article about using Rollei IR-400 and the right filters.
http://www.fotohuisrovo.nl/documentatie/Rollei%20IR%20FAF%203-06(0).pdf

For a wood effect use this IR film with a RG695nm or RG715nm filter. Hoya 720nm is also OK. 780nm is over the sensitivity range for the IR film itself. Up from 750nm the sensitivity of this film is going down fast.

The curve is quite different comparing with the old Maco IR820C which was an extended range Efke 100 emulsion.
This Rollei IR-400 is produced under Rollei/Maco licence by Gevaert.

With the mentioned filters iso 12-25.
The latitude of this film is quite high.

best regards,

Robert
(Dutch Rollei/Maco distributor)

kraker · Sep 6, 2006

Rui.Cardoso said:
Hello All,

I finnaly tried an Hoya R72 Filter and I got some wood effect. The film speed will go down to 6 or even 3 (developed in Xtol 1:2) with this filter.

Any new ideas regarding development of this film, did anyone try the Rollei developers?

I used the suggested Rollei developer and development time, also with Hoya R72 (720 nm), and I can say you're right about the ISO, it's indeed about 3-6.

I can't compare it to any other IR film, because this is the first IR film I've ever used. One sample picture can be found on my site.

No IR effect With Rollei IR 400 and 89b Filter

Moderator

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency