No 400 speed from Adox?

ericdan · Jul 19, 2018

Adox has some fantastic products. I use their paper, developer and stop bath. I sometimes use their Silvermax film, but how come there are no 400 speed films?
I almost feel there's oversupply of films in the 100 speed range. There are other great 400 speed films available and I like shooting those, but I wouldn't mind supporting Adox if they offered one.

Prest_400 · Jul 20, 2018

They did have a project reformulating APX400 and IIRC there was a test batch released, but since then, project has been on hold. It should be down in the Adox forum.
Mirko explained that their cost structure wouldn't be sustained by the current market situation and it wasn't feasible to have APX400 out there. There's HP5 and TriX as tough incumbents.

ericdan · Jul 20, 2018

I see, I just feel there are more 100 speed choices than 400 speed. that being said, I agree HP5+ and Tri-X are tough competition.

Agulliver · Jul 20, 2018

I guess that Silvermax is considered a unique and special product.

In the "high speed B&W" market there's already Ilford Delta 400, Ilford HP5+, Kentmere 400, Kodak TMAX 400, Kodak Tri-X, Fomapan 400, Foma Retropan 320, Bergger Panchro 400, Rollei Retro 400, Rollei RPX 400....and possibly others I haven't thought about.

Unless Adox has some unique selling point such as the high silver content and extremely fine grain of Silvermax....the market has plenty of choice.

halfaman · Jul 20, 2018

If I rememer correctly, Silvermax is the same emulsion they sell as Scala 160. The higher silver content is because the reversal process.

RattyMouse · Jul 20, 2018

Agulliver said:
I guess that Silvermax is considered a unique and special product.

In the "high speed B&W" market there's already Ilford Delta 400, Ilford HP5+, Kentmere 400, Kodak TMAX 400, Kodak Tri-X, Fomapan 400, Foma Retropan 320, Bergger Panchro 400, Rollei Retro 400, Rollei RPX 400....and possibly others I haven't thought about.

Unless Adox has some unique selling point such as the high silver content and extremely fine grain of Silvermax....the market has plenty of choice.

Adox's unique selling point should be that they have a new plant, are properly right sized for the new, smaller film market, and so are able to produce film much more efficiently than their competitors.

That's how I understand it.

Lachlan Young · Jul 20, 2018

ericdan said:
I see, I just feel there are more 100 speed choices than 400 speed. that being said, I agree HP5+ and Tri-X are tough competition.

You've got that backwards - ADOX have said that there were too many 400 speed films in the market for them to profitably make & coat a 400 speed film - that was a few years ago, so it may change with the new coating plants. If each manufacturer made only one 400 speed product, there would probably be space.

ericdan · Jul 21, 2018

Lachlan Young said:
You've got that backwards - ADOX have said that there were too many 400 speed films in the market for them to profitably make & coat a 400 speed film - that was a few years ago, so it may change with the new coating plants. If each manufacturer made only one 400 speed product, there would probably be space.

hmm, let me count that on B&H

~100 ISO about 9 films:

Adox CHSII (not really available)
Adox Silvermax
TMax 100 (Lomo, Earl Gray)
FP4 Plus
Delta 100
Acros 100 (can't count anymore)
Fomapan 100 (Arista 100)
APX 100 (that's really just a rebrand too isn't it?)
RPX 100 (same as APX 100?)
Retro 80s
Kentmere 100
Ferrania P30 (not really available)

400 ISO about 10 films:

Tri-X
HP5 Plus
TMax (Lady Grey)
Kentmere
Delta
JCH
Foma (Arista same?)
Retro 400s
RPX (APX 400)
Panaro 400

OK. You win.

Lachlan Young · Jul 21, 2018

ericdan said:
hmm, let me count that on B&H

~100 ISO about 9 films:

Adox CHSII (not really available)

Adox Silvermax

TMax 100 (Lomo, Earl Gray)

FP4 Plus

Delta 100

Acros 100 (can't count anymore)

Fomapan 100 (Arista 100)

APX 100 (that's really just a rebrand too isn't it?)

RPX 100 (same as APX 100?)

Retro 80s

Kentmere 100

Ferrania P30 (not really available)

400 ISO about 10 films:

Tri-X

HP5 Plus

TMax (Lady Grey)

Kentmere

Delta

JCH

Foma (Arista same?)

Retro 400s

RPX (APX 400)

Panaro 400

OK. You win.

Kentmere 100, RPX 100 & current APX 100 are all essentially the same too - Silvermax is much closer to the original made-by-Agfa Agfapan APX. I think Mirko's comments were made around the time that Fuji dumped Neopan 400. So 7x 100-ish films & 9x 400 (Foma Retro 320 & Bergger Pan 400 are missing from your list - & JCH 400's relationship to rebranded Aviphot is not entirely clear) that are currently available that are definitely different emulsions as opposed to rebrands. Excluding ADOX's films, the 100 speed range would be just 6 strong. CHS-II should be back shortly though.

Rudeofus · Jul 22, 2018

I have a box of Bergger Pancro 400 sitting in front of me, and it says "Made in Germany". If you want ISO 400 film and want to support Adox, I would suggest you order Bergger Pancro 400

miha · Jul 22, 2018

Rudeofus said:
I have a box of Bergger Pancro 400 sitting in front of me, and it says "Made in Germany". If you want ISO 400 film and want to support Adox, I would suggest you order Bergger Pancro 400

A collaboration between Bergger, Filmotek and Inoviscoat?

AgX · Jul 22, 2018

There was and is (even changing) cooperation between manufacturers. But there also is demarcation.

AgX · Jul 22, 2018

As already indicated Adox is just starting as a "true" manufacturer. Then introducing a middle-of-the-road film is not the best idea as then it only could compete by its price.

Concerning economy, for unknown reason it only had been hinted at the coating machine aspect so far in discussions.
But the human factor is important too. For instance designing and then making a 10L batch or a 1000L batch of emulsion, granted the right equipment, costs about the same man hours. Similar for many other steps.
In this aspect for instance Foma can benefit from lower wages. Agfa can benefit due to their vast range of coating jobs to be able to employ their specialists much more economical than Adox can ever do. Adox has to employ their personnel job-wise, unless they got super-allrounders... And finding young(?) specialists willing to get involved in an old-farts industry with unstable employment and lesser promotional chances in a already heated-up employment situation is likely a difficult task.

This all plus the supplies and product development situation has to be kept in mind when discussing new products to be introduced. Too main-stream and there will be small retail price differences that count. Too extraordinary and there will be high product developtment costs and a risk of failing to be accepted by the consumer.

miha · Jul 22, 2018

Well put AgX.

Rudeofus · Jul 22, 2018

miha said:
A collaboration between Bergger, Filmotek and Inoviscoat?

I have been kindly informed by Henning Serger, that my posting was pure and unfounded conjecture and that Bergger films are definitely not coated by Adox. Sorry!

Arklatexian · Jul 22, 2018

ericdan said:
Adox has some fantastic products. I use their paper, developer and stop bath. I sometimes use their Silvermax film, but how come there are no 400 speed films?
I almost feel there's oversupply of films in the 100 speed range. There are other great 400 speed films available and I like shooting those, but I wouldn't mind supporting Adox if they offered one.

I, on the other hand, feel there is an over supply of 400 speed films. Maybe Adox feels as I do.........Regards!

No 400 speed from Adox?

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