Nikon Scan, Silverfast or Vuescan for Coolscan 5000

runswithsizzers

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The answer is right there at the bottom of the window - Adobe Camera Raw (ACR) "...which lets you import and enhance raw images ..." When you try to open any raw image in Photoshop, the first window tha appears is ACR. You can make many initial adjustments in ACR before handing the image over to Photoshop. After leaving the ACR screen and working in Photoshop you are no longer editing the raw file, as such. Photoshop is a pixel editor, not a raw editor. You can, however, while working in Photoshop, bring up many of the tools found in ACR - look under the Filter menu for the ACR Filter.

You might say Lightroom IS ACR with a much expanded interface and many additional features. Because Lightroom is a raw editor, there is no two-step process like with Photoshop.
 

PhilBurton

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I appreciate all these points, but that still doesn't address the core issue here. That core issue is whether ACR can import a NikonScan NEF file as opposed to a Nikon DSLR NEF file. I have found several different web posts that state that ACR cannot in fact import a NikonScan NEF file. BMBikeRider claims he can do that successfully. Also, his reference to "Adobe CC" is ambiguous. What is why I have asked for screenshots of his workflow.
 

Alan Edward Klein

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What's a RAW image from a scanner? If you scan flat, there's nothing special about it. Any post processing program can process it. Converting it to a RAW proprietary file doesn;t make it any more "raw".
 

Alan Edward Klein

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EVen if you apply edits during the scan like contrast, exposure, levels, etc. it's still not a RAW proprietary image and any post processing app can adjust it further. You could convert that I suppose to a proprietary file, but that too doesn;t make it more "raw".
 

MattKing

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RAW doesn't mean unprocessed, but instead it means something that comes out of a piece of machinery in a proprietary (I.e. not a universally recognized) format. It means electronic data that is generally unreadable outside of the proprietary environment established by the equipment manufacturer - an environment whose details may very well be licensed to many third parties (or reverse engineered by some third parties, or both).
Contrast this with something like a file formatted to be read according to the TIFF standard. While that file can reflect unmanipulated information, it is still encoded in a way that ensures it can be read universally.
From what I can tell, RAW converters are a source of some consternation in the digital world
 

MattKing

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Alan Edward Klein said:
What's a RAW image from a scanner?
Click to expand...
It is electronic data that cannot be read as an image without using some sort of conversion into an imaging format like TIFF.
 

Alan Edward Klein

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MattKing said:
It is electronic data that cannot be read as an image without using some sort of conversion into an imaging format like TIFF.
Click to expand...
If you want what the scanner scan without adjustments, just scan flat and save it as a tiff. Then adjust it in post with Lightroom, Photoshop, or any other image processing program you wish. Converting it to a proprietary file after the scan doesn;t improve it. It just modifies it to make it proprietary. There's no point in doing that.
 

MattKing

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Scanners don't output in TIFF - they output a RAW file, with the characteristics of that RAW file being proprietary to the scanner manufacturer.
If you want to use that RAW file, you need to convert it into something. Often people use scanner software to do that initial conversion to something like TIFF.
That conversion is an interpretation - it changes things - and the quality of that interpretation varies with converters.
By accepting the interpretation imposed by your scanner software when it does the conversion from the native RAW to TIFF, you may be compromising on the available quality.
 

Kino

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Err... My Epson 750 Pro will save the scan as a TIFF, but it won't output RAW; at least the Epson Scan software...

 

runswithsizzers

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You are correct to say there would be no point in trying to convert a TIFF file into some kind of raw file (if that is even possible). But I believe the issue is going the other way - converting a raw file to a TIFF. Which results in a loss of editable information.

A raw file contains all the information needed to make a TIFF - and more. For example, if I open a raw file in ACR, one of the options I have is to choose a Color Profile. For most raw files, Adobe offers six different Color Profiles, and one Monochrome Profile. And for my Fuji raw files, there are an additional six Color Profiles and four Monochrome Profiles - which makes 17 profiles, altogether. Once a raw file is converted to a TIFF, one those profiles gets baked into the TIFF, and it's no longer possible to choose any of the other options.

While the output from the scanner's sensor is raw, I believe most scanners typically convert the raw output to a TIFF or JPG when the file is saved. There may be exceptions, so correct me if I am wrong. And unless the scanner can be set to save a raw file as such, then it is impossible to set the scanner to scan "without adjustments" - because even if the user has not made any adjustments, the scanner software did apply some default interpretation to the raw data when it was saved as a TIFF file.
 

Alan Edward Klein

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Matt: My Epson V600 using Epsonscan software outputs the following scan choices. There doesn;t seem to be a RAW output. Also note that in TIFF output which is what I use, you can select "Add ICC profile". (see BOLDED type below) I keep mine checked. Not sure what that means. Maybe you can explain.

Format (File Extension)
Explanation
BITMAP (*.bmp) (Windows only)
Standard image file format used in Windows. Most Windows application including word processing application can read and prepare images in this format.
JPEG (*.jpg)
Compressed file format. The compression quality can be selected; the JPEG format enables relatively high compression ratio. However, the higher the compression ratio is, the lower the image quality becomes. (Note that the original data cannot be restored.) In addition, the quality deteriorates every time the data is saved. The TIFF format is recommended in cases where modification, retouch and the like are required. You can add ICC profile (information on color reproducibility of scanned image) to the image.
Multi-TIFF (*.tif)
TIFF format where multiple pages are saved to the same file. When you scan documents using the Automatic Document Feeder or multiple scanning, all scanned documents are stored in the same file. (With other formats, each document is saved in a separate file.) However, to open the Multi-TIFF files, you need an application supporting this format.
PDF (*.pdf)
Document format that is independent of platforms. When you scan documents using the Automatic Document Feeder or multiple scanning, all scanned documents are stored in the same file. When you save color or grayscale images in PDF, you can select a compression quality.
PICT (*.pct) (Macintosh only)
Standard image file format for the Macintosh. Almost all of the software applications for the Macintosh (such as word processing software) support the PICT file format.
PRINT Image Matching II (JPEG) (*.jpg)/PRINT Image Matching II (TIFF) (*.tif)
Print Image Matching is a standardized method of recording a wider range of color information to enhance the quality of your scanned images. Using a printer compatible with PRINT Image Matching, you can effortlessly achieve printouts that come to life with a dynamic range of brilliant colors.
Note: PRINT Image Matching information does not change the image data or the way the image is displayed on a computer screen.
TIFF (*.tif)
File format created for exchanging data among many applications such as graphic and DTP software. You can specify the compression type. You can add ICC profile (information on color reproducibility of scanned image) to the image.
Embed ICC Profile (EPSON TIFF Plug-in Settings window only)
Allows you to add ICC profile (information on color reproducibility of scanned image) to the image by saving the image in TIFF format. The colors of the scanned image are displayed properly by opening the image with the profile added to the file using the software that supports color management.
 

Kino

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This is true. IF you could get the source code and intercept the pixel information prior to the application of color space LUTs, then you could potentially make a raw file.
 

Alan Edward Klein

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See my previous post. It seems that you can either apply ICC color profile or not to a tiff output file. That's it. There does not seem to be other possibilities for tiff. There's not way to get the scanners "raw" data as far as I could tell. You have to pick one of the selections which include tiff, jpeg, etc shown in my above post.
 

Alan Edward Klein

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I use Lightroom to edit my tiff scans. Does it matter if the Embed ICC Profile is selected or not? What does the following mean?
TIFF (*.tif)
File format created for exchanging data among many applications such as graphic and DTP software. You can specify the compression type. You can add ICC profile (information on color reproducibility of scanned image) to the image.
Embed ICC Profile (EPSON TIFF Plug-in Settings window only)
Allows you to add ICC profile (information on color reproducibility of scanned image) to the image by saving the image in TIFF format. The colors of the scanned image are displayed properly by opening the image with the profile added to the file using the software that supports color management.
 

PhilBurton

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MattKing said:
From what I can tell, RAW converters are a source of some consternation in the digital world
Click to expand...
In the digital world, it is an article of faith that you should set your camera output RAW files, if possible. Generally speaking the discussion is around RAW vs. JPG.

Phil
 

MattKing

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PhilBurton said:
In the digital world, it is an article of faith that you should set your camera output RAW files, if possible. Generally speaking the discussion is around RAW vs. JPG.

Phil
Click to expand...
Au contraire!
I see and hear all these animated discussions about whether to use the RAW converter in Lightroom vs. the RAW converter supplied by (fill in the camera manufacturer) vs. the RAW converter from (fill in the latest, most ground breaking third party software manufacturer).
I hear people complaining bitterly because their latest iteration of their new Fuji camera is not yet supported by the RAW converter in Lightroom, so they are forced to use another piece of software that they don't like in order to access their RAW files.
 

MattKing

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Alan Edward Klein said:
Matt: My Epson V600 using Epsonscan software outputs the following scan choices. There doesn;t seem to be a RAW output.
Click to expand...
Exactly - you may be hobbling the result because you are limiting yourself to just the software that Epson supplied.
Don't get me wrong, there is a decent chance that the Epson software gives you perfectly acceptable results, and may be the most convenient to use.
But it helps to understand that that software is doing a lot of work on what comes out of that scanner's innards, and there are many choices being made when that work is being done, and in many cases the results of making the different choices that may be made by different software may actually be to your benefit.
If you don't think that the scanning software is being extremely active in the process, I suggest using two different pieces of software to try to make unmodified scans of the same original, using the same scanner. You will likely be surprised at how different the results can be.
 

PhilBurton

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Matt,

Have you actually tested different scanning software to see which one provides the most user options, or makes the fewest "choices?"
 

runswithsizzers

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PhilBurton said:
In the digital world, it is an article of faith that you should set your camera output RAW files, if possible. Generally speaking the discussion is around RAW vs. JPG.

Phil
Click to expand...
I would think it would also be desirable to set your scanner to output RAW files, if possible. The question is, Is that possible, using "Nikon Scan, Silverfast or Vuescan for Coolscan 5000" which is what the OP is most interested in? And if so, how is it done?

I hesitate to bring it up because I don't really understand how to make this work to my benefit, but VueScan does have an option to Output Raw File. The following from <this VueScan webpage> I
---
Output | Raw file

(Professional Edition only)

This enables writing raw data from the scanner to a TIFF file.

The raw files are the result of the first of two steps VueScan performs: "scanning". The second step is "processing". These steps are described in the topic "How VueScan Works" in this User's Guide. By providing a mechanism to cleanly separate these two steps, VueScan provides great flexibility and offers options not available in most other scanner software.

You can perform the "processing" step later by setting Input | Source to "File". This lets you rescan images with different settings, without needing to rescan the media.

When the raw file is written depends on the setting of Output | Raw output with.

Raw files are always stored as TIFF files and can therefore be examined in image viewing and editing programs. Note, however that the resolution of raw files (as specified in Output | Raw file type) may be greater than some programs can read.

Little processing is done on raw files so they are a close representation of exactly what the scanner has produced. Raw files will not be filtered nor will color settings be applied. As a result, raw scans may look "wrong".

Raw files contain as much data as the scanner was able to produce before any modifications may have been made, and are therefore good for archiving.

The image gamma value is 1.0 when there are two bytes (16-bits) per sample, and 2.2 when there is one byte (8-bits) per sample. Raw files saved with gamma 1.0 will look dark, but this is normal.

The one exception to this is if Output | Raw output with is set to "Save". In this case, the infrared cleaning and grain reduction is also done before saving the raw scan files.

Professional Option: This option is displayed when Prefs | Enable raw from disk is set or when not scanning from a file.​
---

The creator of the ColorPerfect plugin also discusses this VueScan setting <here>
 

MattKing

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PhilBurton said:
Matt,

Have you actually tested different scanning software to see which one provides the most user options, or makes the fewest "choices?"
Click to expand...
Yes and no.
I've worked off and on for years with a "Professional" VueScan license. I've also worked with Minolta software, Epson software, Polaroid software and Canon software, because at different times I have had and used scanners from those manufacturers.
I've had a very, very small amount of experience with Silverfast.
Each piece of software has, at times, given me better results than other pieces of software. VueScan has definitely offered me the most options, and has often served the purpose of giving me the chance to try to get different results when the manufacturer's software isn't doing what I want.
I have done a tiny amount of experimenting with VueScan's RAW mode, mainly because it permits one to defer any and all processing decisions until after all the physical scanning has been finished. That makes it at least possible to speed up working with batches of negatives.
The biggest advantage of VueScan's RAW mode is that in order to understand what you are doing with it you have to be aware of what actually is happening when you hit the "scan" button.
 
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