Nikon Ai-s cool color cast va Canon FD warm cast

Ethicaldrilling · Sep 14, 2020

Hey Hello,

This is my first post in this community. I have been using Canon A1 with 50mm f1.4 for a while now, but recently I picked up a Nikon FA. I was on the lookout for a sharp, all purpose lens and found an ais 28-50mm f3.5 based on reviews on various forums. I shot a roll with it and was disappointed with the results. What I found aesthetic in film photography was missing in the new roll. Below are four pictures, last two taken with FD 50mm f1.4 and the first two taken with 28-50mm f3.5. I shot both of them at f5.6 on Kodak Gold 200 film.

first two pictures obviously lack that vintage aesthetics even though they were both shot on f5.6 with same film.

I’m trying to understand what caused this because I love the Nikon body and want to stick with it. Could it be the sharpness of the ais lens thats making pictures seem modern? Could it be the cool/green cast of ais lens thats contributing to overall greenish cast of the pictures?

I would love to hear from ais users and if possible get suggestions for a vintage looking warm colored ais lens.

Paul Howell · Sep 14, 2020

Zooms of the day were not up to primes, the Canon 50 1.4 is a very sharp lens, in terms of color cast, usually corrected when printed, either with wet prints or in post for a digital image. I shot with Nikon prime glass as a photojournalist for 16 years then freelanced for another 10 with Nikon nonAI lens that were later converted to AIS. Never used the 28 to 50, used the 28, later a 28 AIS, 50, 100 and 200, no issues color cast, sharp at 5.6 but best F8 or 11. If you want to use a zoom, my thinking is to get a N90, F100 and a modern zoom. Best on the market in by book are Sigma Art lens.

Ethicaldrilling · Sep 14, 2020

I’m sorry. I think you misunderstood the question. The zoom is actually too sharp and modern for my taste. I actually wanted a warm, soft look from my ais just like how I got from Canon FD.
I’m guessing a 50mm f1.4 ais would give me a similar look. However I don’t want to jump the gun and spend money and regret later if this is actually an ais lens feature - modern sharp look with cool cast.

Chan Tran · Sep 14, 2020

I don't think any color cast in the lenses would make a different with color negative films. Exposure different would cause color shift more than any color cast of a lens. What is the vintage aesthetics?

Ethicaldrilling · Sep 14, 2020

Hmm. I guess the fact that I shot my canon in winter and nikon in spring might have caused the colorshift

Disappointed_Horse · Sep 14, 2020

Welcome! Let me try to help a bit. I have no experience with Canon lenses but I do find my Pentax lenses give very slightly warmer colors than my Nikon lenses. I prefer warmer colors as well and use either a skylight filter or an 81A filter even for color negative film. I find they do make a difference—a subtle difference with the skylight filter and not-so-subtle with the 81A, which is a little too much most of the time.

Your first photo looks a bit out of focus to me (perhaps backfocused somewhere between the subject and the sign immediately behind him)—difficult to make any judgments as to sharpness. Your second photo definitely looks much sharper than the other three. Same scanner? Same settings? Also photo number 2 appears to have been shot near midday in the shade, which will always make colors look cooler.

Photo number 3, judging by the long shadows, appears to be a "golden hour" shot from either around sunrise or around sunset. Your lens is giving you the nice warm colors you saw when you pressed the shutter. Number four looks sharper to me than number 1 or number 3.

Disappointed_Horse · Sep 14, 2020

Also, with respect to the 50mm f/1.4 AI-S, I have had one for about 10 years and I would think the results would be comparable to the two photos you posted from your Canon 50mm f/1.4 above. It's a sharp lens, but not obnoxiously so. The larger the aperture, the more "vintage" look you will see. Once you have stopped down to the f/5.6 to f/8 range, any decent prime lens in good condition should be very sharp indeed.

Chan Tran · Sep 14, 2020

Ethicaldrilling said:
Hmm. I guess the fact that I shot my canon in winter and nikon in spring might have caused the colorshift

If the films were processed at a different times then the lab may do the color balance differently. One of the reason I either do the prints myself or ask the lab to redo it my way because they never get the color balance right or rather the way I want it (I know because at one time I manage the lab).. Check the negative I think the one shot with the Canon is slightly underexposed. See if the negative is lighter with the Canon shots. Another thing if you were to scan your prints then it's better to scan your negative and adjust the color balance the way you like it.

reddesert · Sep 14, 2020

It's going to be hard to tell a color cast when shooting color negative film, because the printing or scanning process will usually re balance small color shifts. A warming filter like an 81A will make a modest difference on slide film but may be canceled out on color negative film by printing/scanning.

As others have noted the first couple of images are in open shade which will tend to look bluish, and the third photo is in warm light.

The last photo has significantly more blurred background than the others, perhaps you shot at a wider aperture? (I know you said they were all f/5.6) Also, if you used the Nikon zoom at 28mm rather than 50mm for the first two, the depth of field will be greater, so the background is more detailed and distracting.

I'm not sure exactly what look you're going for but here are some suggestions:
- take pictures at early morning / late afternoon light
- get closer to your subjects, so their upper torso/head nearly fills the frame, and let the background blur
- use a slightly wider aperture like f/2 - f/4
- get a 50mm lens for the Nikon (any of f/1.4, f/1.8, f/2 will be fine). Don't worry about the color cast.

voceumana · Sep 14, 2020

You can't evaluate color balance with negative films, as the color balance will change on how they are printed. If you really want to see if there is a color cast difference (and I doubt there is), use slide film.

Also, scenes with snow, sand, and water may show more blue because of the high reflection of the sky. Comparison tests need to be under the same lighting.

pentaxuser · Sep 14, 2020

Aren't we back to judging different lenses by scans? I suspect it is like PM's question time in the U.K. House of Commons It is good fun but not really very productive or likely to lead to the truth

Can we produce a list that gives us a consensus on warm and cold lenses? I'll with the statement that only Leica lenses can give a Leica glow Does this help the debate? No, but its good knock about stuff

pentaxuser

pentaxuser · Sep 14, 2020

OK here's something positive. Yes the first pic might be slightly out of focus but all the pics look great and drained of humour now I stand by that statement

pentaxuser

wiltw · Sep 14, 2020

Color balance can change based on time of day
Color balance can change based on it being sunny vs. overcast sky vs. being in open shaded area
Color balance can change based on the setting chosen by the printing machine operator for any given print

Unless you include a neutral gray target under the same lighting conditions, one cannot expect to receive a print made with a 'neutral' color filter pack which is used during printing, and then derive any conclusion from a randomly chosen filter pack.
And then if you shoot a neutral gray target with a 'cool' lens vs. a 'warm' lens, since the lab balanced for a neutral gray target, the perceived warmth vs. coolness will be gone.

If you shoot with a 'cool' lens vs. with a 'warm' lens, both shots must be in same lighting conditions on the same roll, and both shots are printed with the identical filter pack, and then any differences will be perceived.

vlasta · Sep 15, 2020

On this pictures Ai-S has warm cast and FD cool cast, that is what I see. I prefer Ai-S ones.

pentaxuser · Sep 15, 2020

vlasta said:
On this pictures Ai-S has warm cast and FD cool cast, that is what I see. I prefer Ai-S ones.

The fact that you see the opposite to the OP suggests that all of it is in the eye of the beholder and no meaningful in the sense of scientific conclusions can be drawn

This of course is also fine

pentaxuser

BradS · Sep 15, 2020

Ethicaldrilling said:
Hmm. I guess the fact that I shot my canon in winter and nikon in spring might have caused the colorshift

Yes. Exactly. The time of day makes a very big difference as well. Keep up the good work. Have fun. Embrace the imperfect. Don’t overthink it.

runswithsizzers · Sep 15, 2020

I suspect the difference in color cast between any two lenses is relatively small compared to all the other differences in color introduced by different processing, printers, scanners, and monitors. Possibly, there are differences in human perception of color, as well, that may be minor or significant.

Bottom line, it is impossible to say if the two lenses produce different color palettes unless all the other variables are controlled.

I suspect there would also be a wide range of definitions for terms like "vintage look" and "film aesthetic" among different photograpers. In addition to parameters like color palette, sharpness, grain, etc, I believe subject matter has big influence, too. One way to advance the film aesthetic is to find scenes and subject matter which are somewhat ambiguous with respect to the decade or century. That is, if you want a vintage look, avoid photos with modern cars, cell phones, etc. Of the four images posted here, only the first one is ambiguous about the era it depicts; and for me that helps makes it the most successful in promoting a vintage look.

John Koehrer · Sep 15, 2020

voceumana said:
You can't evaluate color balance with negative films, as the color balance will change on how they are printed. If you really want to see if there is a color cast difference (and I doubt there is), use slide film."

Years ago when I had access to a variety of camera toys, I compared Nikon, Canon and Leica on a lightbox for Casual look and demo
for customers. There was indeed a difference as voceumana said but ONLY noticeable in side by side comparisons.
To eliminate processing faults one roll of Kodachrome was used making several exposures then a few blanks then several more blanks
until all of the cameras were shot. It was perceptible to all of us employees. Not one of us was unable to see the difference.
We didn't repeat with a negative film because of the intervening steps in the process.

swchris · Sep 15, 2020

pentaxuser said:
The fact that you see the opposite to the OP suggests that all of it is in the eye of the beholder and no meaningful in the sense of scientific conclusions can be drawn

This of course is also fine

I'm color blind (red/brown) so I don't have an opinion about the pictures....

George Mann · Sep 15, 2020

vlasta said:
On this pictures Ai-S has warm cast and FD cool cast, that is what I see. I prefer Ai-S ones.

As I have always found them to be.

BrianShaw · Sep 15, 2020

pentaxuser said:
drained of humour now I stand by that statement

... (edit). I seem to have completely lost my train of thought and forgot what I was going to comment. Or I lost my nerve and decided it was better judgement to remain silent.

pentaxuser · Sep 15, 2020

BrianShaw said:
... (edit). I seem to have completely lost my train of thought and forgot what I was going to comment. Or I lost my nerve and decided it was better judgement to remain silent.

Can't really help you with whatever your reply was going to be Brian but if it helps I was saying that all whimsy aside and yes I do indulge in this I admit, I thought all the pics were fine. I couldn't really see any difference in warmth when you take into account the difference in the scenes, light and weather.

No on second thoughts, let me be more blunt that that. I can't see any difference in warmth full stop. Both lenses seem to perform admirably

My perception of warmth may be faulty or I may be more easily pleased with what I see than others.

pentaxuser

Ethicaldrilling · Sep 16, 2020

Thank you everyone for the inputs. I admit I didn’t factor in the conditions while shooting. I guess I will try shooting them together at the same subject to see how they respond.

Bormental · Sep 16, 2020

Ethicaldrilling said:
first two pictures obviously lack that vintage aesthetics even though they were both shot on f5.6 with same film.

Obviously? I didn't notice. They all have Kodak Gold look to me and the difference in color balance is consistent with difference in lighting and the subjects.

The 1st photo is the most retro-looking, in my opinion.

MattKing · Sep 16, 2020

Ethicaldrilling said:
Thank you everyone for the inputs. I admit I didn’t factor in the conditions while shooting. I guess I will try shooting them together at the same subject to see how they respond.

You need to use the same film, the same exposure and two cameras side by side, with the shots taken at or near the same time.
The film needs to be slide film, and you need to have it developed by the same lab, preferably in the same run.
Try to do the test under a number of different lighting conditions. And I would aim for something like f/8 for a significant percentage of the tests, although it might be interesting to see if the colour differences diverge nearer maximum aperture.
That approach should help isolate the variables to just the difference in the lenses.

Nikon Ai-s cool color cast va Canon FD warm cast

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