Nikkormat Overhaul Question

Eagle Blue · Jul 6, 2017

Having become proficient in camera repair, I've become particularly interested in the Nikkormats. I've stripped down several and now have a couple questions that I don't seem to find any answers for. I have 2 of them that each have their good parts that I'd like to make into a whole. Concerning the mirror box, I'm please at how modular of a component it is and can be removed whole, and done pretty easily at that. But the question is, can it be simply be swapped to another body without worry as to the infinity focus being thrown off? There are no shims or spacer washers in either body. I am having a hard time believing that the factory assemblers simply took the next part out of their bin and bolted it on with no collimating of the focus, shimming or anything like that. I'm quite sure a Rolleiflex or a Hasselblad certainly had lens mount-to-film plane standards and adjustments, shims, spacers, or whatever. But not a one that I've been able to tell in a Nikkormat.
My second question concerns shutter lubrication. I have not been able to find any information on the lubrication points in a Copal Square shutter, or any other service materials on it for that matter. Thank you.

Edit: I'm familiar with the available service manual downloads. It is lacking in several areas.

paul ron · Jul 7, 2017

Get the repair manual. Google it,
Ive seen it floating around as a free download.

.

flavio81 · Jul 7, 2017

The copal shutter should have its own manual, do you have it?

I'm amazed that there are no shims. Are you sure? No washers as well?

Eagle Blue · Jul 7, 2017

Thank you for the lead on the Copal manual. I wasn't aware of it. Although I don't relish getting involved with watchworks, which is about the scope of it. My eyesight and tools are lacking. I had hoped to find out if it was OK to switch mirror boxes. But not knowing if it would disturb lens mount to film rail distance, I'm not going to without being better educated. I know you can adjust infinity on the screen with the lower mirror stop adjustment. But that doesn't help the film plane matter. From all that I see, this is entirely dependent on the tolerances in manufacture of the body casting and mirror box. I would have thought that they at least would have used thin brass spacer washers or something for fine adjustment. But no, the mirror box just mounts straight to the body, taking the lens mount and meter contact doughnut with it. From there, what ever measurement to the film plane is what it is. This just seems odd. I wonder if the F and F2 were like that, or did they put more attention to this measurement in them? I wonder if there is another site with more repair people on it than this one. I don't have access to a computer often enough to get into detailed conversations.

E. von Hoegh · Jul 7, 2017

Eagle Blue said:
Thank you for the lead on the Copal manual. I wasn't aware of it. Although I don't relish getting involved with watchworks, which is about the scope of it. My eyesight and tools are lacking. I had hoped to find out if it was OK to switch mirror boxes. But not knowing if it would disturb lens mount to film rail distance, I'm not going to without being better educated. I know you can adjust infinity on the screen with the lower mirror stop adjustment. But that doesn't help the film plane matter. From all that I see, this is entirely dependent on the tolerances in manufacture of the body casting and mirror box. I would have thought that they at least would have used thin brass spacer washers or something for fine adjustment. But no, the mirror box just mounts straight to the body, taking the lens mount and meter contact doughnut with it. From there, what ever measurement to the film plane is what it is. This just seems odd. I wonder if the F and F2 were like that, or did they put more attention to this measurement in them? I wonder if there is another site with more repair people on it than this one. I don't have access to a computer often enough to get into detailed conversations.

Film plane to flange distance is controlled by shims under the lens mounting flange. I think there were spacers of various thickness used to set this, rather than a stack of shims.

Eagle Blue · Jul 7, 2017

Thank you post 5. You caught me before having to leave. No there are no shims under there. The flats of the mirror box are screwed directly to the front of the body casting with 5 screws and one under the rear finder lens bracket. Then the meter contact doughnut is screwed with 4 screws to the mirror box, which traps the speed and resistance rings between. Then the lens mount just lays directly on the contact doughnut with 4 screws, and that's it. I've opened up others and never saw spacing or shimming parts of any kind. And no fine screw adjustments either. It looks entirely dependent on manufacturing tolerances.

E. von Hoegh · Jul 7, 2017

What model/vintage cameras are you working on?

Eagle Blue · Jul 7, 2017

Hey, this is cool. My cell phone goes off when there's a reply and I can run back and use the computer to answer. These are both FTN's from about 1971 or 72 by my best guess. I can't find serial number charts on the Nikkormats accurate like the Nikons, so you have to make a reasonable guess. But FT2's are the same way. And someone gave me a few junk FT3's that are not too dissimilar. At least enough samples to see that no special measures were taken to control lens mount to film rail distance. Unless they actually kept separate bins of pre-measured parts at the assembly stations.

shutterfinger · Jul 7, 2017

I'm betting the die cast aluminum frame was machined to precise measurements eliminating the need for shims.

E. von Hoegh · Jul 7, 2017

shutterfinger said:
I'm betting the die cast aluminum frame was machined to precise measurements eliminating the need for shims.

The mirror box casting and main body casting may have been machined as a set, eliminating the need for shims as long as tolerances are held. If so, swapping mirror boxes between bodies might not be a good idea.
Now I need to figure out where I got the shim idea from.

shutterfinger · Jul 7, 2017

E. von Hoegh said:
The mirror box casting and main body casting may have been machined as a set, eliminating the need for shims as long as tolerances are held.

Time to get out the caliper and do some careful measurements then order some brass shim stock if needed.

John Koehrer · Jul 7, 2017

Copal square:Other than the clockworks I've never seen anything about lubrication
on any part of the shutter blades themselves.

If you've got the cameras apart why not try it? If you could borrow a depth micrometer you
could make a comparative reading or three.

Eagle Blue · Jul 8, 2017

John Koehrer said:
Copal square:Other than the clockworks I've never seen anything about lubrication
on any part of the shutter blades themselves.

If you've got the cameras apart why not try it? If you could borrow a depth micrometer you
could make a comparative reading or three.

Thanks for all the replies. Sometimes you don't get exactly the information you had hoped for, but enough to make you think for yourself. As it turns out what I was seeking was called flange distance, which is 46.5mm on a Nikon F. So a Nikkormat would obviously follow suit. Actually both of these bodies are restorable instead of parting one to save the other. Although I don't relish the idea of removing the Copal shutter from one to clean and lube it. That gets into the area of watch and clockmaker's work. Something tells me that simply lubricating a clock mechanism on top of old dried lubricant, instead of disassembly and sonic cleaning is a short term fix. Maybe I'll just put them on ebay as-is and get them out of mind and be glad I have a nice F and a nice FT2 already. I appreciate these replies.

Nikkormat Overhaul Question

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