Nikkor pre-ai “C” marked vs ai/ai-s

reddesert · Sep 15, 2020

RLangham said:
Then it's still a very weird double gauss with that front element. For some reason it kind of reminds me of how the lens on the Olympus XA is actually a telephoto with a focal length of only 28mm, to fit a 28mm lens in the smallest space possible.

At any rate, I still think it goes to show how Nikkor lenses were top notch from early on, since that's a hell of a lens and its first iteration came out in only '59.

It's a slight modification of a double Gauss design by adding that weak front element and making the whole design somewhat asymmetric. The asymmetry contributes to making it slightly retrofocus. Practically all ~50mm normal SLR lenses are a little asymmetric and retrofocus, so that the rear elements can clear the mirror. If you look at the location of the middle of the elements in a normal 50mm lens, it's frequently around 60mm ahead of the film plane. (I don't know why they added that weak front element, but it probably helps the second element in some way; in the later design they were able to just use one more strongly curved meniscus in the front.)

I know the OP didn't ask for a technical discussion, but it wasn't clear what the OP wanted exactly; the technical parts are only relevant to say that "all of these lenses are more than up to par." If you want to know what the focusing feel of a non-AI Nikkor is, it all depends on condition. If the lens is in good condition, it feels like the buttery smooth hand of an angel is focusing for you. If the lens has been left out on the beach or has loose setscrews floating around the inside, it might feel like twenty miles of washboard road.

dourbalistar · Sep 16, 2020

OP, if you're looking for some so-called real world examples, I have an album on my Flickr of (film) images all taken with the Nikkor-S Auto 55mm f/1.2. I know you're primarily considering the coated -C versions, but maybe my (single coated) image samples can serve as a comparison. The single coated version may even produce a more dreamy wide open look that you're after. Mine is the pre-AI version that was factory converted to AI, so optically it's the older version of the lens. My particular copy is a "Version 3" circa 1971-72 based on what I've been able to gather. According to the linked article, some changes were made to improve close focusing performance for serial numbers over 220001 (produced from August 1971).

I'll mostly let the images speak for themselves, but shooting wide open, it's soft and glowy, and the bokeh can be kind of wild depending on the background. Very much a "character" lens at wider apertures. Stopped down a little bit to f/2 or f/2.8, it behaves more like most normal 50mm lenses, and I found the lens to be sufficiently sharp enough for my needs. Ergonomically, it has a very large, scalloped focus ring, and is quite front-heavy mounted on my Nikon FM2n. The focus ring is large enough that if you set your camera down, it will be tilted up and resting on the focus ring - something to keep in mind if you care about potential paint loss. By comparison the aperture ring is small, and close to the camera body. Filter thread size is normal at 52mm, even though the front element appears quite bulbous.

All in all, I really enjoy using the 55mm f/1.2, but for me, it has been relegated to more speciality low-light purposes where I know I'll need the extra speed. For most everyday shooting, I replaced it with a much lighter and more compact AI Nikkor 50mm f/1.8S "pancake" lens. Hope that helps!

dourbalistar · Sep 16, 2020

I do have a few examples from a Nikkor-S.C Auto 55mm f/1.2 for comparison. The only caveat is that lens had an issue where the aperture didn't stop down properly, and was stuck mostly wide open. I decided to shoot a roll anyway over the weekend before returning it to the seller the following Monday. The FM2n's top 1/4000 shutter speed helped with shooting wide open during the day. I'll let you make your own judgements, as I really didn't have much experience with the S.C version.

George Worst · Sep 16, 2020

dourbalistar said:
OP, if you're looking for some so-called real world examples, I have an album on my Flickr of (film) images all taken with the Nikkor-S Auto 55mm f/1.2. I know you're primarily considering the coated -C versions, but maybe my (single coated) image samples can serve as a comparison. The single coated version may even produce a more dreamy wide open look that you're after. Mine is the pre-AI version that was factory converted to AI, so optically it's the older version of the lens. My particular copy is a "Version 3" circa 1971-72 based on what I've been able to gather. According to the linked article, some changes were made to improve close focusing performance for serial numbers over 220001 (produced from August 1971).

I'll mostly let the images speak for themselves, but shooting wide open, it's soft and glowy, and the bokeh can be kind of wild depending on the background. Very much a "character" lens at wider apertures. Stopped down a little bit to f/2 or f/2.8, it behaves more like most normal 50mm lenses, and I found the lens to be sufficiently sharp enough for my needs. Ergonomically, it has a very large, scalloped focus ring, and is quite front-heavy mounted on my Nikon FM2n. The focus ring is large enough that if you set your camera down, it will be tilted up and resting on the focus ring - something to keep in mind if you care about potential paint loss. By comparison the aperture ring is small, and close to the camera body. Filter thread size is normal at 52mm, even though the front element appears quite bulbous.

All in all, I really enjoy using the 55mm f/1.2, but for me, it has been relegated to more speciality low-light purposes where I know I'll need the extra speed. For most everyday shooting, I replaced it with a much lighter and more compact AI Nikkor 50mm f/1.8S "pancake" lens. Hope that helps!

You’ve been very helpful. I’ll check your album as well! Thank you very much!!!

George Worst · Sep 16, 2020

dourbalistar said:
I do have a few examples from a Nikkor-S.C Auto 55mm f/1.2 for comparison. The only caveat is that lens had an issue where the aperture didn't stop down properly, and was stuck mostly wide open. I decided to shoot a roll anyway over the weekend before returning it to the seller the following Monday. The FM2n's top 1/4000 shutter speed helped with shooting wide open during the day. I'll let you make your own judgements, as I really didn't have much experience with the S.C version.

It seems very nice and sharp! If these picks are wide open then it is very sharp straight from wide open! Very impressive!

George Worst · Sep 16, 2020

dourbalistar said:
OP, if you're looking for some so-called real world examples, I have an album on my Flickr of (film) images all taken with the Nikkor-S Auto 55mm f/1.2. I know you're primarily considering the coated -C versions, but maybe my (single coated) image samples can serve as a comparison. The single coated version may even produce a more dreamy wide open look that you're after. Mine is the pre-AI version that was factory converted to AI, so optically it's the older version of the lens. My particular copy is a "Version 3" circa 1971-72 based on what I've been able to gather. According to the linked article, some changes were made to improve close focusing performance for serial numbers over 220001 (produced from August 1971).

I'll mostly let the images speak for themselves, but shooting wide open, it's soft and glowy, and the bokeh can be kind of wild depending on the background. Very much a "character" lens at wider apertures. Stopped down a little bit to f/2 or f/2.8, it behaves more like most normal 50mm lenses, and I found the lens to be sufficiently sharp enough for my needs. Ergonomically, it has a very large, scalloped focus ring, and is quite front-heavy mounted on my Nikon FM2n. The focus ring is large enough that if you set your camera down, it will be tilted up and resting on the focus ring - something to keep in mind if you care about potential paint loss. By comparison the aperture ring is small, and close to the camera body. Filter thread size is normal at 52mm, even though the front element appears quite bulbous.

All in all, I really enjoy using the 55mm f/1.2, but for me, it has been relegated to more speciality low-light purposes where I know I'll need the extra speed. For most everyday shooting, I replaced it with a much lighter and more compact AI Nikkor 50mm f/1.8S "pancake" lens. Hope that helps!

It maybe look a little bit dreamy wide open but still quite sharp! very nice one and I also like that it is very sharp edge to edge stopped down, very nice for landscapes as well! Nice picks btw. The only thing I've read here http://www.nicovandijk.net/55types.htm and concerns me a bit is that the S.C version has an amber coating and I don't know if that is going to give very warm tones. I don't shoot B&W much, mostly colored. Anyone that has any experience with it in color film or digital?

BradS · Sep 16, 2020

George Worst said:
.....The only thing I've read here http://www.nicovandijk.net/55types.htm and concerns me a bit is that the S.C version has an amber coating and I don't know if that is going to give very warm tones. I don't shoot B&W much, mostly colored. Anyone that has any experience with it in color film or digital?

No. It will not be noticeable. You are really overthinking this. It is a 50 year old lens. It is pretty well known by now. There is a reason that that it still commands over $200 used.

On the other hand, it is a 50 year old lens! The variation between individuals will be much more important than if you were buying new. Condition of the individual specimen that you purchase is of paramount importance.

dourbalistar · Sep 16, 2020

George Worst said:
You’ve been very helpful. I’ll check your album as well! Thank you very much!!!

George Worst said:
It seems very nice and sharp! If these picks are wide open then it is very sharp straight from wide open! Very impressive!

You're welcome, glad it was helpful! If the -S.C lens did stop down any, it wasn't more than f/1.4. As I said, I only used it for one weekend, and then I returned the lens in exchange for the working -S single coated version. That said, in terms of performance, the 55/1.2 is very versatile, going from dreamy "character" lens wide open, to good edge to edge sharpness stopped down. Its main disadvantage is size and weight.

George Worst said:
It maybe look a little bit dreamy wide open but still quite sharp! very nice one and I also like that it is very sharp edge to edge stopped down, very nice for landscapes as well! Nice picks btw. The only thing I've read here http://www.nicovandijk.net/55types.htm and concerns me a bit is that the S.C version has an amber coating and I don't know if that is going to give very warm tones. I don't shoot B&W much, mostly colored. Anyone that has any experience with it in color film or digital?

I don't think the color of the coating will have any impact on your photos in terms of color cast.

BradS said:
No. It will not be noticeable. You are really overthinking this. It is a 50 year old lens. It is pretty well known by now. There is a reason that that it still commands over $200 used.

On the other hand, it is a 50 year old lens! The variation between individuals will be much more important than if you were buying new. Condition of the individual specimen that you purchase is of paramount importance.

I agree with BradS, given a 50 year old lens, the condition will matter a lot in terms of performance.

George Worst · Sep 16, 2020

dourbalistar said:
You're welcome, glad it was helpful! If the -S.C lens did stop down any, it wasn't more than f/1.4. As I said, I only used it for one weekend, and then I returned the lens in exchange for the working -S single coated version. That said, in terms of performance, the 55/1.2 is very versatile, going from dreamy "character" lens wide open, to good edge to edge sharpness stopped down. Its main disadvantage is size and weight.

Since you’ve kind of checked out both single and multi coated versions which one do you finally like more? I know it’s not a proper or fair comparison but just from what you’ve seen so far. And mostly at wider apertures where you’ve shot with both I suppose. Also how does the single coated perform? Does it suffer from flaring, low contrast (even stopped down) or such things due to the single coatings?

dourbalistar · Sep 16, 2020

George Worst said:
Since you’ve kind of checked out both single and multi coated versions which one do you finally like more? I know it’s not a proper or fair comparison but just from what you’ve seen so far. And mostly at wider apertures where you’ve shot with both I suppose. Also how does the single coated perform? Does it suffer from flaring, low contrast (even stopped down) or such things due to the single coatings?

Honestly, I can't make any fair comparison between the two, since I had the -S.C version for such a short time. As for the single coated version, I've not had any complaints about flare or lack of contrast. I don't often shoot directly into the sun, but I also don't use any hood. I think I have close to 200 images in my Flickr album, so I'll let you judge for yourself whether you find anything lacking in the lens' performance, since what's acceptable for me might not be adequate for your taste. I found it to be an excellent lens, just a bit too large and heavy for everyday carry (though I did use it as my primary lens for 6-months or so before getting another lens).

For whatever it's worth, I also had no complaints about the Nikkor-H Auto 50mm f/2 non-AI lens that I have. It's also single coated, but has excellent performance. Widely available for less than $50.

George Worst · Sep 16, 2020

dourbalistar said:
Honestly, I can't make any fair comparison between the two, since I had the -S.C version for such a short time. As for the single coated version, I've not had any complaints about flare or lack of contrast. I don't often shoot directly into the sun, but I also don't use any hood. I think I have close to 200 images in my Flickr album, so I'll let you judge for yourself whether you find anything lacking in the lens' performance, since what's acceptable for me might not be adequate for your taste. I found it to be an excellent lens, just a bit too large and heavy for everyday carry (though I did use it as my primary lens for 6-months or so before getting another lens).

For whatever it's worth, I also had no complaints about the Nikkor-H Auto 50mm f/2 non-AI lens that I have. It's also single coated, but has excellent performance. Widely available for less than $50.

Can you please send me a direct link? I know 50mm f2 is nice, besides it is an easy lens to make. Most of the 50mm’s f2 are decent lenses but I’m so used to f1.4 and f2 seems a little bit slow for my taste. Heaviness and size are not huge problems for me. Besides I’m going to pair it with my Takumar 50mm f1.4 that is quite small and light for a more compact alternative. But I really wanted an f1.2 lens, maybe it’s just an obsession maybe not, I don’t know... I am also considering the 50mm f1.2 but the 55mm can be found cheaper and maybe it is a better alternative for my Takumar, otherwise a 50mm is probably going to replace the Takumar. And finally I’ve read somewhere that 55mm and 58mm lenses can be better on giving depth on images, you know... I don’t know if it is true...

dourbalistar · Sep 16, 2020

George Worst said:
Can you please send me a direct link? I know 50mm f2 is nice, besides it is an easy lens to make. Most of the 50mm’s f2 are decent lenses but I’m so used to f1.4 and f2 seems a little bit slow for my taste. Heaviness and size are not huge problems for me. Besides I’m going to pair it with my Takumar 50mm f1.4 that is quite small and light for a more compact alternative. But I really wanted an f1.2 lens, maybe it’s just an obsession maybe not, I don’t know... I am also considering the 50mm f1.2 but the 55mm can be found cheaper and maybe it is a better alternative for my Takumar, otherwise a 50mm is probably going to replace the Takumar. And finally I’ve read somewhere that 55mm and 58mm lenses can be better on giving depth on images, you know... I don’t know if it is true...

Here's a link to an album of images taken with the Nikkor-H Auto 50mm f/2. Usually f/2 is fast enough for general shooting, but yes, it is nice to have that extra speed in very low light. However, getting sharp focus at f/1.2 is quite challenging because the depth of field is so narrow.

George Worst · Sep 16, 2020

dourbalistar said:
Here's a link to an album of images taken with the Nikkor-H Auto 50mm f/2. Usually f/2 is fast enough for general shooting, but yes, it is nice to have that extra speed in very low light. However, getting sharp focus at f/1.2 is quite challenging because the depth of field is so narrow.

I meant the album from the 55mm f1.2 S (single coated), thanks.

George Worst · Sep 16, 2020

George Worst said:
I meant the album from the 55mm f1.2 S (single coated), thanks.

Anyway I think I’ve found it myself. I’m going to explore some more as well

dourbalistar · Sep 16, 2020

George Worst said:
Anyway I think I’ve found it myself. I’m going to explore some more as well

I didn't even create an album for it since I had the lens for such a short time. But here's a link, and you also search by the "Nikkor-S.C Auto 55mm f/1.2" tag.

George Worst · Sep 16, 2020

dourbalistar said:
I didn't even create an album for it since I had the lens for such a short time. But here's a link, and you also search by the "Nikkor-S.C Auto 55mm f/1.2" tag.

Thanks!

dourbalistar · Sep 22, 2020

George Worst said:
Thanks!

Just saw this article on Emulsive about the Nikkor-S 55mm f/1.4:
https://emulsive.org/articles/5-fra...x-ei-125-35mm-nikon-fm2-by-guilherme-maranhao

My experience matches up with this description by the author of the article:

It became clear that this lens has three different characters or looks depending on the f/stop used. One with the lens between 1.2 and 1.4 (very soft, very unique), one between 1.8 and 2 (less soft, probably would mix well with 28mm f/2 or 35mm f/1.4 wide open) and 2.8 and above (not soft at all, can be mixed with other Nikkor lenses, if used in same assignment).

George Worst · Sep 23, 2020

dourbalistar said:
Just saw this article on Emulsive about the Nikkor-S 55mm f/1.4:
https://emulsive.org/articles/5-fra...x-ei-125-35mm-nikon-fm2-by-guilherme-maranhao

My experience matches up with this description by the author of the article:

Thank you

Nikkor pre-ai “C” marked vs ai/ai-s

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