Newton's rings

Dan Pelland · Jul 24, 2006

I hope kjsphoto's troubles are cured. I installed a non-glare glass in his frame and, at least on my workbench, the Newton's rings were much less apparent. I'd like to write a little article for my web site on this topic, but I admit I have only this minimum personal experience to go on. Maybe I just never noticed, because now that I'm tuned in to it, I see the pesky little patterns on every frame and negative I take the time to closely inspect. I'd like to hear from anyone who has had trouble printing due to Newton's rings. Where, in the print, are the effects most noticeable? (highlights, midtones, shadows). Are certain films less apt to produce the effect? I wouldn't expect the chemistry to have any bearing since it's the film base side adjacent to the glass, but you never know. What remedies have shown the best results?

RalphLambrecht · Jul 24, 2006

Tmax films have some trouble with Newton rings, due to their smooth non-emulsion side. AN-glass is normally mounted on the top of the glass-negative sandwich, because the emulsion side is pointing towards the baseboard.

rbarker · Jul 25, 2006

My big question has always been why don't Newton's Rings obey the laws of gravity and fall off the print, like an apple from a tree?

Markus Albertz · Jul 25, 2006

I observe Newton rings pretty much all the time during contact printing sessions. I have yet to see any negative effects on my prints and so I just ignore them. I would also like to hear from anyone who has had trouble in the print highlights, midtones, etc.

Best,

Markus

kjsphoto · Jul 25, 2006

Well that is why it came up for me. I never had an issue with them before but I printed a negative that had a lot of sky (white and clouds) and that is where they showed up. I have not tried the frame with the new glass yet but I am hoping to give it a spin this weekend and looking forward as I miss the darkroom

Dan, thank you again so much for everything!

A true professional in every regard! And excellent craftsmanship!

Anyway I will let you all know how the glass works this weekend if I am able

User Removed · Aug 1, 2006

Its really odd how some people get rings, and others don´t. Ive been printing with my negative between glass for several years now. When I make enlargments, I place the negative between two sheets of glass as my negative carrier, and when I am contact printing, I use various types of cheep picture frame glass in my contact frames. I´ve NEVER had rings appear!

Now that I mention this however....they will probably start showing up the next time I print!

George Collier · Aug 20, 2006

I just saw this thread, hope I'm not too late to post -
I have continuing problems with NR, in contact printing (with an enlarger, with a piece of foam and glass, enlarger up at about 11x14 size on enlarging paper.) All from 4x5 negs.
I have tried:
1/4" plate glass, window glass, AntiGlare glass, with the enlarger lens in focus, way out of focus, with no lens (raw enlarge light), with a layer of diffusion material on top of the glass, winter, summer (different humidity levels). I even tried the Ed Weston method - ceiling light exposed manually. I have not made one print without NR's. They can appear in any tonal area, and I can see them during exposure. I finally gave up. Any suggestions would be welcomed.
BTW - In the 70's I did a lot of contacting (the same way, with the enlarger and 1/4" plate glass) with never a problem, in a different darkroom in a different part of Virginia. The only difference that I can think of was that that darkroom (in a university) was perpetually air conditioned (or heated). My new darkroom is in my basement, but I have a dehumidifier going all the time (50%RH).

kjsphoto · Aug 20, 2006

Try to get a piece of anti glare glass. I think that is what it is. That completely cleared up my Newton ring problems. PM Dan Pelland and ask him. He is an APUG member and makes some of the best contact frames around.

Loose Gravel · Aug 20, 2006

Looks like George was pretty close. If you are contact printing and don't need to see the neg well and can tolerate increased exposure, put the neg under a diffusion material directly. An example of this would be to use white plexiglass directly above the neg (between the neg and the light source). This gives a relatively good amount of diffusion. I don't think Newton can make his little rings in diffuse light.

The same thing works with diffusion enlarging and coldlight. Make the diffusor the top part of a 'glass' neg holder. The bottom can be regular glass.

menglert · Aug 20, 2006

I can't begin to tell you how thrilled I am today!!!

Finally I solved my Newton Ring problems. I was using a newly made vacuum frame, and the Newton Rings became very noticeable in the mid-tones. Highlights and shadows were not much of a problem. I priced anti-glare glass, but it was far too expensive for me (11x14 $65)...

I decided to try a piece of frosted glass (24x25 $34), and it worked fantastic. The Newton Rings are not merely diminished, they are completely gone now. The side of the glass which is frosted adds a slight texture, and also defuses light evenly, so it was perfect for my purposes.

Now I can get back to printing my photos, and get out and take some new ones!

Dan Pelland · Aug 20, 2006

It's odd, how these things behave. There have been so many reports of contributing factors and remedies that it's really hard to find the common thread. Loose Gravel's report that diffuse light sources diminish the NR effects is directly opposite my own. I'm sure LG's report is factual, but I HAD to use use a diffuse source to see the problem with Kevin's frame. When I first tried to see the rings, I tried sunlight. All I could see were a few small patterns (even with a magnifying glass). I tried incandescent light, but still no results. When I got the little light box I use to view slides (very diffuse), and looked at the reflection of it in the printing frame the NR's were everywhere, and very well defined. Could be the difference is transmission vs reflection. Anyway I'm glad to hear that menglert's problem is fixed.

buze · Oct 16, 2006

I'm nowhere near a pro contact printer, but I've done about 40 the last 2 days (small ones, 8x10 max) using a contact printer (paterson) and also a "sandwich" with 2 plain plates of "opticaly perfect" glass.
The first handful of prints I could see newton ring patterns in the glass (both mounts), at an angle.. Since I was testing exposure etc, I ignored them and I kept at it without cleaning the glass (apart from obvious marks) and after 10 prints or so the rings disappeared completely.

So maybe having a "worked out" piece of glass makes a difference ? It could amount to a residue of dust etc from the various negs that were pressed against the glass, but it made a fantastic difference...

I think that now I will "train" the glass a bit before important prints...

Robert Hall · Oct 18, 2006

To add to this thread:

I live in Utah. Very dry. I get NR if I lay the negative on the glass right after cleaning. If I let it dry, they go away.

I also use a single side anti reflection glass for silver printing. I would like to use it for platinum as well, but it is also a 94%uv glass. It tends to slow things down a little.

I hope to find a source of non-UV antiglare glass. Anyone? Anyone?

Claire Senft · Oct 21, 2006

I get the best result with AN glass. I have tried Denglas which is recommended by Ctein..not very effective for me.

For 6x7 and smaller negatives one may buy AN slide mounts in 85mm square.
You will get 20 pieces on AN glass and 20 pieces of regular glass.

One method that I have found to be effective with regular glass is to tape the long top edge to either an open frame or bottm glass and then apply tape to the opposite side and trim it to the negative width w/o overhang. Then I Tape a piece of regular glass over this. The glass pushes the film flat and since the glass is resting on the tape the newton rings go away. This is fairly effective. Sometimes I still need to use AN glass. As far as the Denglass I do not recommend it.

Robert Hall · Oct 23, 2006

Claire Senft said:
I get the best result with AN glass. I have tried Denglas which is recommended by Ctein..not very effective for me.

Just an interesting aside, Denglass went out of business in April of this year.

spotmaticfanatic · Apr 2, 2007

I too was having problems with Newton's Rings. I started using a piece of frosted glass on the top side of the neg carrier. It works great, except for when i try to print overexposed film. That stuff comes out looking really grainy. Anyone else have this experience? Is it fixable?

eclarke · Apr 2, 2007

Howard Bond related that he used a glass holder on his 8x10 enlarger and never experienced any Newton rings. While photographing the Cathedrals of England, he stood on Isaac Newton's burial spot in Westminster Abbey..when he returned home and began to print, there were Newton rings!!...EC

menglert · Apr 3, 2007

There is a glass that seems to be slightly frosted and used for framing. You can find it at Joann Fabrics, Michaels, or I'm sure other framing shops. I forget the exact name of the glass, but ask to see samples of their selection and you can easily pick it out. It has a very faint and fine frosting to it.

Regards,
Martin

RalphLambrecht · Apr 4, 2007

menglert said:
There is a glass that seems to be slightly frosted and used for framing. You can find it at Joann Fabrics, Michaels, or I'm sure other framing shops. I forget the exact name of the glass, but ask to see samples of their selection and you can easily pick it out. It has a very faint and fine frosting to it.

Regards,
Martin

That's the glass, I was talking about. It's the anti-glare picture framing glass. It should work above the negative.

RalphLambrecht · Mar 19, 2012

you also get it at halbe.de .

EASmithV · Mar 19, 2012

Newton was a real a**hole for inventing these things. Now we all gotta deal with the stupid things.

Moopheus · Mar 19, 2012

EASmithV said:
Newton was a real a**hole for inventing these things. Now we all gotta deal with the stupid things.

Just be glad we don't have to deal with Einstein Rings. Then we would have real problems.

bsdunek · Mar 19, 2012

I found that giving the film a quick rinse after using Photoflo eliminated my Newton Ring problems. It may not be the only problem, but excess Photoflo sure seems to contribute.

DREW WILEY · Mar 21, 2012

Old thread. Just order up some real 3mm antiNewton glass from Focal Point and be done with it.

DREW WILEY · Mar 22, 2012

There just aren't many choice left for true AN glass. Focal Point will custom cut your glass and edge it with
either 2mm or 3mm stock, and they're reasonable. Etched picture frame glass isn't the same thing - it breaks
way easier and sometimes causes minor optical issues the way it diffuses the light. At one time I had samples of
AN glass from all over the world. The best came from Belgium. It's a fussier topic in an enlarging carrier than a
contact frame.

Newton's rings

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