Newbie Question

jmal · Aug 16, 2007

I'm sure this has been addressed many times before, but I like a personalized response; I'm needy. Anyhow, I have the bug for the larger side of things, but I'm very low on cash. I currently shoot 35mm with one body and one lens, so I'm starting from the ground up. My intended uses are wide open natural spaces, portraits, and "urban landscapes," in that order. So, would I be better off with a cheap old rail camera like the Calumet 4x5 (I know, they're not the most practical for the field) or a Graflex? I've been told that the Graflex is very useable in the field and is only missing the perspective control, which isn't really needed for nature stuff. They are also very cheap. I'm interested in any other suggstions as well. If there is a way into 5x7 cheaply, that would be great too. I could contact print at that size. Thanks for any advice.

Jmal

dc1215 · Aug 16, 2007

I know plenty of people who have shot for years with a graflex in the field and have had very few complaints. They're a great way to get in to large format.

How low is very low on cash? I got my 5x7 for 50 dollars...maybe even a little less. It was in pretty awful condition, took me a bit to get it working right, and its still far from perfect, but it works, and thats all that really matters. If you're willing to do some work yourself, and not have the prettiest camera on the block, you can get some great deals.

jmal · Aug 16, 2007

$300-$400 for a camera, lens, and a holder or two. I'm fairly mechanically inclined, but LF still seems like a foreign entity and I don't want to have to put too much repair time into a camera. Anything out there in 5x7 that fits my budget? I know, it's asking alot for the budget, but some people seem to find the bargains.

Jmal

k_jupiter · Aug 17, 2007

Of course there is. $300.00? Find a B&J Watson Wood field camera. Lots of 5x7 lens out there, almost anything over 210mm will cover with no or limited movements. The problem is finding a shutter in that price range that still works reliably. Of course, if you wear a hat, that isn't as much of an issue. Older Type 5 film holders are in the neighborhood of 20 bucks a piece. You'll need a meter, an older Gossen Luna-Pro or something will work, budget 30 bucks for the battery adapter (they originally used 1.35v Mercury cells, the adapter allows you to use 1.5v batteries). The nice thing about 5x7 is your enlarger costs are a light bulb with timer and a piece of glass for contact printing.

But... in your position, I would still be looking for a 4x5 Speed or Crown Graphic, a 150/6.3 Fujinon lens, and a nice tripod. It's a sweet setup. I used one for 15 years before I branched out into different LF formats.

tim in san jose

Nick Zentena · Aug 17, 2007

$300-400 if you're patient is plenty.

Hauling a Calumet 400 type isn't so much a weight issue but a bulk issue. An older Graflex View camera [not the press those are a different route] is easier to haul. Plenty of wooden 5x7s you can choose from. But they mostly don't go very wide. So no extreme wide angle use. OTOH with your budget you won't be looking at those lenses either.

papagene · Aug 17, 2007

I bought an old wooden Kodak 2D 5x7 for $200.00 USD, refinished. Got 10 5x7 holders for about $85. I already had a lens, but good lenses can be had for a good price. So 5x7 is doable for a good price. Where I lucked out was I already had an ancient 5x7 enlarger.
On the other hand, if you want to enlarge your negs, the Crown or Speed Graphic would be the way to go as there are many more used 4x5 enlargers on the used market.
Good luck.

gene

Black Dog · Aug 17, 2007

Most of the time, you're not hiking 20+ miles over moor and mountain and bog to get to your subject, so weight isn't necessarily a problem.Keep an eye out on a certain popular online auction site, too, and LF dealers' bargain bins (KEH, MXV, Mr Cad etc)-don't forget the APUG classifieds either. Good luck!

noseoil · Aug 17, 2007

If you are going to enlarge, the 4x5 will be great. It can be contact printed with a 35mm enlarger if that is what you need, but if you plan on larger prints, think of an enlarger at some point. With the 5x7 you can contact print, but your ability to enlarge is more limited by the relative lack of cheaper enlargers in this format.

It sounds like 4x5 might be a better choice as far as the general availability of film, cameras, lenses, enlargers, film holders and equipment are concerned. I would vote for an old press camera. You can find an old Crown or Speed Graphic in good condition with a lens and a couple of film holders pretty easily. A basic exposure meter, some film and a few odds and ends (cable release, dark cloth perhaps and a tripod), then you have the outfit you can use and carry easily. 4x5 will do anything you need in general and a decent 127mm or 135mm lens will be on the camera already. Check slower speeds on the shutter to make sure it is working well. Check the range finder if it has one and you are ready to shoot. tim

Jim Jones · Aug 17, 2007

Speed Graphics are fine cameras, but a few other brands have some better features. For example, some Busch Pressman cameras have better front movements and a rotating back. Anniversary and earlier model Speed Graphics have only a rising front. Later models have somewhat inconvenient, but useable, front tilts. Some Speed Graphics have the Graflok back that accepts Graflok roll film adaptors. Most press cameras don't, and accept only roll film holders like the Calumet C-2 or more primative ones.

A source of extensive information on the Graphic cameras is Graphic Graflex Photography by Willard D. Morgtan and Henry M. Lester, available from many on-line used book sellers. The first seven editions cover the Anniversary and earlier models. The 8th edition includes the earliest Pacemaker series. The 11th edition covers the top rangefinder Pacemaker series and the Super Graphic. Even the early editions are interesting for articles that were dropped in late editions, such as Rudolf Kingslake on lenses, Ansel Adams on printing, Bernice Abbot on view camera, Barbara Morgan on dance, and Harold Edgerton on electronic flash. Although some of the information in Graphic Graflex Photography is brand specific, much is useful for anyone using similar cameras.

GeorgesGiralt · Aug 17, 2007

Hi Jmal !
May I advise you of one thing ?
You will, one day or another swap camera, for buying a nice 4x5 filed or maybe a brand new Arca Misura (gorgeous but at 3500 Euro a piece ...).
So if you are low on budget save on the camera, but not on the lens nor the tripod. The lens will serve you as long as you stay in 4x5 size and so will the tripod. Get the better lens you can afford and buy a Graflex even used or ugly. You'll make your first steps into LF and this is quite a new photography to learn ! Do not go for 5x7 as film is more expensive as is 4x5. In the beginning you'll need to use as much film as you want, because large format is the better know way to ruin a maximum of film.... Been there, done that ;-)
Just my 2¢

Peter Schrager · Aug 17, 2007

LF setup

I used a 4x5 kodak masterview in the field for years. it is a strong camera with a bale back. strong enough to hold a polaroid holder also. I highly reccommend a slik 500 something x tripod for around 125 dollars. it holds my wooden deardorf 5x7 camera very well. made of 3 composite materials-a real sleeper of a tripod. using junky filmholders will dampen your LF experience. don't waste your time with those. there are plenty of good holders out in ebay world. I would also say to get at least ten for your kit. all the advise given here will certainly get you going.....
Best, Peter

John Koehrer · Aug 17, 2007

Timing is everything! Craigslist in Chicago had an 8X10 Seneca with a barrel lens and one holder for $75 last week. There are a slug of cameras out there being given away. Of course for each bargain there's an overpriced piece also.
If you can deal with the bulk, a monorail camera can be a good starting point.
The limits of the press camera is lack of movements & short bellows so if you like to shoot detail may not have the extension needed.

jmal · Aug 17, 2007

Thanks for the advice. It seems that most feel press cameras are perfectly fine. I may just grab one as they are cheap. I'm just affraid that I'll want more versatility than a Graflex. I'm one of those types that starts thinking things like, "Maybe I do want to be able to correct those converging lines." Etc. I do think I'll go for 4x5 one way or another because of the availability of everything related. I'll probably just contact print until I can afford a 4x5 enlarger. More research...

Jmal

Jim Jones · Aug 17, 2007

Even though I have view cameras, I occasionally find press cameras more convenient. Weather permitting, I'll be using a Speed Graphic tomorrow morning for a quick shot where setting up a tripod is awkward. Georges is right about lenses and tripods. They can be lifetime purchases. The lenses originally mounted on press cameras usually perform well, but have inadequate coverage for much front movement. 4x5 enlargers can be quite inexpensive, as many people are going digital. It doesn't take much of a scanner with a transparency adaptor to get a quality large file from a 4x5 negative.

Ole · Aug 17, 2007

I "third" what's been said about lenses and tripods. At least one of my tripods is approaching its first century; another is the exact same model only 50 years newer.

I also have great lenses which are well past the first century, and many of the ones I use most often are over 50 years old.

I use both a press camera (for the focal plane shutter, nice with the old barrel lenses) and a super-duper ultramodern 4x5" camera with more movements than I would have thought possible until I got to try it out. Both have their strengths and weaknesses.

BTW an Anniversary Speed Graphic has enough front rise/shift that you can avoid converging lines in very many situations - you don't need a Carbon Infinity for that.

jmal · Aug 17, 2007

Please forgive my ignorance, but is there enough control with press cameras to focus near and far? I think the two aspects that draw me to LF are the tonality and the almost 3D quality of the prints. It seems that the ability to focus the foreground and background is what creates this 3D effect. I've been reading so much online about all of this that I feel like a huge ball of confusion.

Jmal

k_jupiter · Aug 18, 2007

jmal said:
Please forgive my ignorance, but is there enough control with press cameras to focus near and far? I think the two aspects that draw me to LF are the tonality and the almost 3D quality of the prints. It seems that the ability to focus the foreground and background is what creates this 3D effect. I've been reading so much online about all of this that I feel like a huge ball of confusion.

Jmal

You be talking about the Scheinflug Effect. No, a press camera won't give you that in most cases. Not enough movements to allow for the angle required to effect that effect.

But... in 20 years of LF photography, I've used the S.E. a dozen times maybe.

The Speed or Crown graphic is a wonderful landscape photographic instrument. Compact, almost bulletproof, light tight box. Enough movements to take 97.4% of all landscape photos.

tim in san jose

ragc · Aug 18, 2007

jmal:

This has been said before, but here it is again: It is easy to get in for not a lot of money, but you need to decide what it is you want to do before you start buying your equipment. I have both an Anniversary Speed Graphic press camera and several wood field cameras. I did not spend more than $150.00 on any of my cameras (I bought one for $300.00, but it included a good lens and shutter, several film holders and film!). I prefer the wood field cameras for going out to shoot landscapes, but there are times when the press camera, hand-held, is more convenient. This is generally not a landscape situation. If you plan to go out and shoot nature, go with the wood field, you will feel better. The images below may give you an idea of what's possible for the money. They were all bought in eBay, with smart bidding. They are all very capable cameras. Go to KEH.com and price some lenses. Their 'bargain' grade is very fine - it's all I've bought and I've never been dissapointed.

Here's my $140.00 Japanese half-plate I converted to 4x5 and 5x7 by making backs for it. This is the most portable in the field, but has limited movements (no swing in front), but I can drop the bed by using double tilts:

Here's my Korona 5x7 with a 4x5 reduction back ($100.00). A better tabletop and studio job, as it is heavier. It has full movements, no drop bed:

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Here's my $300.00 (with lens) Korona 5x7. It's been to the field and does very well. The brass screws on the lensboard are the swing/tilt controls I added by making a double lensboard with a small bellows between the two plates. This can be done for a press camera if you have the tools The stock camera has only rise/fall in the front:

And here is my $75.00 Anniversary Speed Graphic press camera. Great on the field but not as versatile, not pretty in nature, only rise/fall on front, no back movements:

Richard Kelham · Aug 18, 2007

jmal said:
Please forgive my ignorance, but is there enough control with press cameras to focus near and far? I think the two aspects that draw me to LF are the tonality and the almost 3D quality of the prints. It seems that the ability to focus the foreground and background is what creates this 3D effect. I've been reading so much online about all of this that I feel like a huge ball of confusion.

I think mostly it's because we habitually shoot at f22 or less. For Scheimpflug Effect you would need a camera with a full range of movements on the front or at least a way to bodge it! My technical field camera lacks forward tilt so I have to tip it on its side and use front swing instead if I want SE, but I normally only use SE in the studio with a monorail.

There are a number of relatively inexpensive technical cameras out there (MPP, Toyo 45CF etc) which are more versatile than a press camera yet just as portable.

Richard

jmal · Aug 18, 2007

Although it looks like a field camera is the first choice, the Cambo 4x5 SC/SCX look like the standards can slide of the rail easily. If this is true, then I could pack the standards and bellows in a backpack and have the rail poking out if need be. They seem to go pretty cheaply and certainly wouldn't be lacking for movements that I may or may not need. Any thoughts?

John Kasaian · Aug 18, 2007

Whatever you get, make sure the bellows don't leak out the darkness. Nothin' will sour you faster on lf than a piece of cr@p camera! Especially if you're looking at old press cameras---most of them worked hard for a living and many of the really low priced ones will require more $$ to get working reliably. IMHO the safest bet for a low bucks lf is the Calumet 400 series---I don't know what they made the belows out of, but its tough stuff. My 2-cents.

kirkfry · Aug 19, 2007

"IMHO the safest bet for a low bucks lf is the Calumet 400 series---I don't know what they made the belows out of, but its tough stuff." These cameras are full blown view cameras with all movements. I have had mine for years. Great cameras, they just don't travel on airplanes well (don't fold). You can carry them fine, just put them on a tripod and sling it over your shoulder. I have carried mine miles that way. CC400's will run circles around a press camera and you will learn movements. CC400's go for $100 on ebay, no better deal can be found in full blown view cameras. After you learn on that you can buy what you want for more $$$$$. But I bet your pictures won't be much better. K

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