NEWBIE in film development

Roi · Mar 5, 2021

Hello guys!

I' have acquired some chemistry from someone that was selling locally. I got some liquid HC110, Tmax, and D76 powder. I forgot to ask how old these were as it was in a box he was literally giving away. Is there any way of knowing the shelf life on these? What if it's 2 decades old..?

I have pushed a 120 roll of HP5, 4 stops. I know this might seem a little adventurous but I just want to get started on experimenting developing. I have heard about Rodinal and stand development and love the results that one can achieve via the push process and over-development.

Anyways I need some advice from you awesome folks.
1 - shelf life of these chemicals (developers) I acquired?
2 - should I even bother using these or just stick with a brand say xtol, or Ilford ddx...etc (so many out there) if so which developer would you suggest for a pushed roll of hp5 and/anyone just starting with black and white home developing?
3 - any other books or online resources I could use to figure out dev times, temperatures, agitation times...etc basically a walk thru, so I know I am doing it right?
4 any other recommendations would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you in advance!

removedacct1 · Mar 5, 2021

Hi Roi. Get yourself a copy of Black and White Photography: A Basic Manual by Henry Horenstein

As for old chemistry of unknown age and storage conditions: either test it on film that doesn't matter, or forget it and buy new chemistry.

mshchem · Mar 5, 2021

I would set your treasure in a corner until you try fresh chemistry. Liquid chemistry is easy. Rodinal is made by Adox, keeps very well and is economical. A liquid rapid fixer, and a stop bath, maybe a wetting agent like photoflo.

mshchem · Mar 5, 2021

Ilford has great web support for their products

Roi · Mar 5, 2021

paulbarden said:
Hi Roi. Get yourself a copy of Black and White Photography: A Basic Manual by Henry Horenstein

As for old chemistry of unknown age and storage conditions: either test it on film that doesn't matter, or forget it and buy new chemistry.

Thank you for that !

Donald Qualls · Mar 5, 2021

I would NOT recommend Rodinal for pushed HP5, no matter how fresh the developer.

The D-76 powder you were given is virtually certain to still be good, as long as it's still powder in the bag rather than a solidified lump (i've mixed Dektol that was fifteen years expired, and I'm currently using replenished Xtol that I mixed in 2020 -- from a bag that expired in 2002), and D-76 is a much better choice for pushing than Rodinal (nothing wrong with Rodinal, it's a fine developer, but not for pushing). For film, at least, stop bath is optional; I prefer to use it, but many others don't. You need stop bath for prints. Any sort of rapid fixer is okay, and I'm presently using rapid fixer in my darkroom that was expired when I got it almost fifteen years ago, and sat in an unheated, uncooled shed (in the original bottle) for five years before I mixed it. Works fine.

Another good option, perhaps not quite as good for pushing as D-76, is that HC-110. Assuming the concentrate in the bottle is syrupy, between maple syrup and honey in consistency and colored a bit like honey as well, that's the good stuff, the old formula. It lasts virtually forever as long as the bottle is closed. I've used lots of HC-110 in Dilutions E, F, and G. Sorry, can't help you on DD-X, never used it.

However: all that stuff, assuming it's in the original packaging, ought to have expiration dates -- which are generally two years after date of manufacture. For powders and concentrates, that's more of a guideline; manufacturers assign those dates very conservatively, so they're off the hook if something doesn't work right ten years down the road -- but it almost always will work right ten years down the road, with most commercial chemicals, providing they're in the original packaging and it's still sealed.

Roi · Mar 5, 2021

mshchem said:
I would set your treasure in a corner until you try fresh chemistry. Liquid chemistry is easy. Rodinal is made by Adox, keeps very well and is economical. A liquid rapid fixer, and a stop bath, maybe a wetting agent like photoflo.

Thank you for that info. I have been thinking maybe its best to leave the old for now and start with new chemistry. I did purchase Ilford fixer from B and H, currently they don't ship Rodinal to Canada.

MattKing · Mar 5, 2021

Where in Canada are you? We might be able to point you to some local resources.

Roi · Mar 6, 2021

Donald Qualls said:
I would NOT recommend Rodinal for pushed HP5, no matter how fresh the developer.

The D-76 powder you were given is virtually certain to still be good, as long as it's still powder in the bag rather than a solidified lump (i've mixed Dektol that was fifteen years expired, and I'm currently using replenished Xtol that I mixed in 2020 -- from a bag that expired in 2002), and D-76 is a much better choice for pushing than Rodinal (nothing wrong with Rodinal, it's a fine developer, but not for pushing). For film, at least, stop bath is optional; I prefer to use it, but many others don't. You need stop bath for prints. Any sort of rapid fixer is okay, and I'm presently using rapid fixer in my darkroom that was expired when I got it almost fifteen years ago, and sat in an unheated, uncooled shed (in the original bottle) for five years before I mixed it. Works fine.

Donald Qualls said:

I would NOT recommend Rodinal for pushed HP5, no matter how fresh the developer.
The D-76 powder you were given is virtually certain to still be good, as long as it's still powder in the bag rather than a solidified lump (i've mixed Dektol that was fifteen years expired, and I'm currently using replenished Xtol that I mixed in 2020 -- from a bag that expired in 2002), and D-76 is a much better choice for pushing than Rodinal (nothing wrong with Rodinal, it's a fine developer, but not for pushing). For film, at least, stop bath is optional; I prefer to use it, but many others don't. You need stop bath for prints. Any sort of rapid fixer is okay, and I'm presently using rapid fixer in my darkroom that was expired when I got it almost fifteen years ago, and sat in an unheated, uncooled shed (in the original bottle) for five years before I mixed it. Works fine.
Firstly, thanks for your detailed response! I really appreaciate it. How does one dilute powdered D76? Any tips would be welcome. I have bought ilford fixer. I am thinking of using water for a stop bath (for now).
Another good option, perhaps not quite as good for pushing as D-76, is that HC-110. Assuming the concentrate in the bottle is syrupy, between maple syrup and honey in consistency and colored a bit like honey as well, that's the good stuff, the old formula. It lasts virtually forever as long as the bottle is closed. I've used lots of HC-110 in Dilutions E, F, and G. Sorry, can't help you on DD-X, never used it.
Good to know, Ill take ap eek at it. When I opened the lid the seal came off so I am not sure if its been used or not..
However: all that stuff, assuming it's in the original packaging, ought to have expiration dates -- which are generally two years after date of manufacture. For powders and concentrates, that's more of a guideline; manufacturers assign those dates very conservatively, so they're off the hook if something doesn't work right ten years down the road -- but it almost always will work right ten years down the road, with most commercial chemicals, providing they're in the original packaging and it's still sealed.

Click to expand...

Thanks again for this.

Another good option, perhaps not quite as good for pushing as D-76, is that HC-110. Assuming the concentrate in the bottle is syrupy, between maple syrup and honey in consistency and colored a bit like honey as well, that's the good stuff, the old formula. It lasts virtually forever as long as the bottle is closed. I've used lots of HC-110 in Dilutions E, F, and G. Sorry, can't help you on DD-X, never used it.

However: all that stuff, assuming it's in the original packaging, ought to have expiration dates -- which are generally two years after date of manufacture. For powders and concentrates, that's more of a guideline; manufacturers assign those dates very conservatively, so they're off the hook if something doesn't work right ten years down the road -- but it almost always will work right ten years down the road, with most commercial chemicals, providing they're in the original packaging and it's still sealed.

Roi · Mar 6, 2021

MattKing said:
Where in Canada are you? We might be able to point you to some local resources.

I live in Winnipeg MB.

Roi · Mar 6, 2021

Donald Qualls said:
I would NOT recommend Rodinal for pushed HP5, no matter how fresh the developer.

The D-76 powder you were given is virtually certain to still be good, as long as it's still powder in the bag rather than a solidified lump (i've mixed Dektol that was fifteen years expired, and I'm currently using replenished Xtol that I mixed in 2020 -- from a bag that expired in 2002), and D-76 is a much better choice for pushing than Rodinal (nothing wrong with Rodinal, it's a fine developer, but not for pushing). For film, at least, stop bath is optional; I prefer to use it, but many others don't. You need stop bath for prints. Any sort of rapid fixer is okay, and I'm presently using rapid fixer in my darkroom that was expired when I got it almost fifteen years ago, and sat in an unheated, uncooled shed (in the original bottle) for five years before I mixed it. Works fine.

Another good option, perhaps not quite as good for pushing as D-76, is that HC-110. Assuming the concentrate in the bottle is syrupy, between maple syrup and honey in consistency and colored a bit like honey as well, that's the good stuff, the old formula. It lasts virtually forever as long as the bottle is closed. I've used lots of HC-110 in Dilutions E, F, and G. Sorry, can't help you on DD-X, never used it.

However: all that stuff, assuming it's in the original packaging, ought to have expiration dates -- which are generally two years after date of manufacture. For powders and concentrates, that's more of a guideline; manufacturers assign those dates very conservatively, so they're off the hook if something doesn't work right ten years down the road -- but it almost always will work right ten years down the road, with most commercial chemicals, providing they're in the original packaging and it's still sealed.

Any tips on developing pushed HP5 to 6400 using D76? I have read stand development might be great, but I have no idea which method to use. Using stand development I think it's around 25 minutes...
But I am all ears here so any would be super useful! Thanks again.

Roi · Mar 6, 2021

Roi said:
Any tips on developing pushed HP5 to 6400 using D76? I have read stand development might be great, but I have no idea which method to use. Using stand development I think it's around 25 minutes...
But I am all ears here so any would be super useful! Thanks again.

I forgot to mention its HP5 120 film.

pentaxuser · Mar 6, 2021

Roi said:
Hello guys!

I have pushed a 120 roll of HP5, 4 stops. I know this might seem a little adventurous but I just want to get started on experimenting developing. I have heard about Rodinal and stand development and love the results that one can achieve via the push process and over-development.

Thank you in advance!

If you want to see what kind of results you might get with HP5+ 120 pushed to 6400 then have a look at this video. A lab developed his film and he makes no mention of what developer the lab used but as it was a lab and he is in the U.S. I would have thought there was a good chance it was D76.

As Donald has said there should be every reason to believe that as it is a powder developer it should be as good as new unless air got into the powder

Here's the video
pentaxuser

MattKing · Mar 6, 2021

Roi said:
I live in Winnipeg MB.

Have you tried Don's Photo: https://donsphoto.com/shop/categories/chemistry/712572fa-830d-401e-a59b-4d50b6162c1b

Hatchetman · Mar 6, 2021

If you value that film at all I would buy ALL NEW chemicals. Not worth the heartache. I have lost a few roles over time and it can be devastating if it is something important.

MattKing · Mar 6, 2021

Roi said:
Any tips on developing pushed HP5 to 6400 using D76? I have read stand development might be great, but I have no idea which method to use. Using stand development I think it's around 25 minutes...
But I am all ears here so any would be super useful! Thanks again.

That is film that is four stops under-exposed. Whatever you do, whatever developer you use, you won't get much shadow detail out of this, and the mid-tone and highlight rendition probably won't be that great.
By the way "pushing" really only refers to the increased development part of the under-expose and over-develop procedure that people often refer to as "pushing" film.
I guess you can probably sense I'm not a big fan of pushing film.
By the way, I like your screen name - is it intended as the French version of part of mine?

Andrew O'Neill · Mar 6, 2021

Roi said:
Thank you for that info. I have been thinking maybe its best to leave the old for now and start with new chemistry. I did purchase Ilford fixer from B and H, currently they don't ship Rodinal to Canada.

Rodinal is sold as Blazinal, in Canada. But if I were ever to push film, I would use Xtol. Doesn't Dons Photo have anything?

Roi · Mar 6, 2021

pentaxuser said:
If you want to see what kind of results you might get with HP5+ 120 pushed to 6400 then have a look at this video. A lab developed his film and he makes no mention of what developer the lab used but as it was a lab and he is in the U.S. I would have thought there was a good chance it was D76.

As Donald has said there should be every reason to believe that as it is a powder developer it should be as good as new unless air got into the powder

Here's the video
pentaxuser

Yes I have seem McDougalls exposure test vidoes. Unfortunately, he doesnt mention any developing techniques or tips.

Roi · Mar 6, 2021

MattKing said:
Have you tried Don's Photo: https://donsphoto.com/shop/categories/chemistry/712572fa-830d-401e-a59b-4d50b6162c1b

Yes I have , I may have spoken too quick thank you !

Roi · Mar 6, 2021

Andrew O'Neill said:
Rodinal is sold as Blazinal, in Canada. But if I were ever to push film, I would use Xtol. Doesn't Dons Photo have anything?

Any reason why xtol over say d76 or any other developer for that reason? I was looking at stand development for that specific roll of hp5 I had pushed 4 stops. Thoughts?

Roi · Mar 6, 2021

Hatchetman said:
If you value that film at all I would buy ALL NEW chemicals. Not worth the heartache. I have lost a few roles over time and it can be devastating if it is something important.

THats what I am inclined towards now that I have a few experts opinion

Roi · Mar 6, 2021

Andrew O'Neill said:
Rodinal is sold as Blazinal, in Canada. But if I were ever to push film, I would use Xtol. Doesn't Dons Photo have anything?

Cheers thanks!

Roi · Mar 6, 2021

MattKing said:
That is film that is four stops under-exposed. Whatever you do, whatever developer you use, you won't get much shadow detail out of this, and the mid-tone and highlight rendition probably won't be that great.
By the way "pushing" really only refers to the increased development part of the under-expose and over-develop procedure that people often refer to as "pushing" film.
I guess you can probably sense I'm not a big fan of pushing film.
By the way, I like your screen name - is it intended as the French version of part of mine?

Yes I only decided to do this because I have been living under a shell of not experimenting with film and sticking to guides. I have pushed hp5 up to 1600, another 2 stops wouldn't hurt, I wasn't expecting much detail, as it was the last coldest night we had before most of the snow melted here. A bitter reminder that Winter is always around the corner Anyways thanks for the compliment. It actually is my real name.

Donald Qualls · Mar 6, 2021

I don't know that there's any way to get good image quality with HP5 pushed to 6400. That's four stops; the usually recommended limit is no more than three, with two a more common figure.

That said, I have processed 1990s vintage Tri-X (Tri-X 320 sheet film) at EI 6400, using what I called "Super Soup" (concocted for the occasion):

This developer was created in an attempt to salvage some Tri-X sheet film negatives that were loaded backward and exposed through the base, approximately five stops of antihalation between the lens and the emulsion. It works very well, and with the recommended process prints at near-normal contrast rather than showing the extreme contrast you'd get with a conventional push (which, in any case, can't come anywhere near this level). It seems to get literally everything possible out of any film on which I've treid it -- and given what's in it, is most likely developing to completion, which is what controls the contrast.

6 ounces water
24 ml Dektol stock solution
8 ml HC-110 syrup (or 32 ml stock solution)
1 g ascorbic acid
1/2 tsp washing soda (sodium carbonate monohydrate)
2 g potassium bromide (optional)
Water to make eight ounces

Develop for fifteen minutes, agitating very vigorously every thirty seconds. Stop and fix normally. Some fog is normal, and can be printed through. You will (of course) see an increase in grain, but it's not as much as you might expect; with large format and even the larger medium format negatives the grain increase may be barely noticeable (and isn't objectionable in comparison to super-fast films in 35 mm).

Notice that this is a mixture of four developing agents at well above normal working strength, with additional alkali; it gains true speed and the recommended process develops to completion. I've never tried it on HP5+, but it doesn't work as well on other films -- even the other kind of Tri-X that was available in 2005 (400TX) only got to EI 5000 and showed a lot more grain than the 320TXP.

If you want to try this, you'll need to get some Dektol, some vitamin C, and a box of washing soda from the supermarket. I would VERY STRONGLY recommend trying this with a test roll bracketed from box speed up to EI 6400 before attempting to process your pushed roll with images you presumably care about; my best guess on what you'd get from HP5+ with Super Soup is about EI 3200-4000, but that give enough image density to be able to scan and at least retrieve something.

Andrew O'Neill · Mar 6, 2021

Roi said:
Any reason why xtol over say d76 or any other developer for that reason? I was looking at stand development for that specific roll of hp5 I had pushed 4 stops. Thoughts?

I have more experience with Xtol over D76. Either one will do the job. I don't know what type of photography you will be doing with 4 stop pushed HP5 (HP5 is my main film, BTW). It's quite good for pushing up to EI 1600, then after that it just looks chalky... in my opinion. Is there a reason why you want to push it that much? Have you considered using TMZed 3200 or Delta 3200?

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