Newbie Dry Plate effort..

peter k. · May 13, 2018

Ordered some dry plates, and have never shot at 2asa before... nor have we shot any paper negatives, but would this be a good place to start? To practice before we actually try exposing a dry plate, to get a feel for the process?
Any suggestions ?

removedacct1 · May 13, 2018

Hi Peter.
Have you shot large format at all, before? If you've shot sheet film in 4x5 or larger, then the only practical difference between - for example - HP5 and Jason Lane's dry plates is the speed. In terms of handling differences, you can process J. Lane plates under a red safelight. Advantage: you can process by inspection.
However, its worth noting that J. Lane plates can't be used in a standard film holder: it must be modified to allow for the thickness of the glass, or you will need to purchase a wet plate holder in the appropriate size. What provisions have you made to accommodate the glass plates?

A paper negative isn't as similar to dry plates as you might think, except that both are "red blind" emulsions and both are quite slow. If its the slow speed you want to get a feel for, then making a paper negative will at least give you a sense for how slow these ortho emulsions are.

peter k. · May 13, 2018

paulbarden said:
If its the slow speed you want to get a feel for, then making a paper negative will at least give you a sense for how slow these ortho emulsions are.

Yes we have shot 4x5, and yes understand need a proper holder for the glass plates. have some Kodak 9x12's that believe will work, as they have have spring back plate, so the holder will take regular film or glass plates. See image below ... Tested these 9x12 film holders in 3x4 yesterday, so could shoot in 9x12 folder or preferably in 3x4. See this Monthly Shooting Assignment Post # 14
https://www.photrio.com/forum/forums/monthly-shooting-assignment.40/

So the nervousness comes from the new process, and at $4+ a pop, do not want to do allot of testing.
Just checked the freezer and we have some Efke 25 left over, that expired in 2013... Read somewhere in Duma's posts that ASA 2 was a good starting point but it could go up to 25.
Could use that and test using my old classic Western ranger 9 at that a low ASA, and try developing in my Steeriman press 4x5 without holder, filling it and then laying it on its side and gently agitating ect, .

Any thoughts to add...?

jimjm · May 13, 2018

I understand where you're coming from Peter. I ordered some 5x7 plates from Jason for my 1915 Eastman View, so it works out to about $7 per shot for me. Using an old Wollensak lens from the same period, so the shutter is nowhere near as accurate as with modern lenses. Although at ISO 2, most shots will be manually timed at 1 or more sec. I'll be erring on the side of overexposure if I have any doubts.

I'm being really picky about the subjects I choose for plate shots. The camera and lens have worked great for ISO 100 film, so the only risk is if my untested plate holders have any light leaks that I am not aware of yet. I had also been thinking of testing these for leaks with paper negatives first.

peter k. · May 13, 2018

jimjm said:
I'm being really picky about the subjects I choose for plate shots.

Curious, what kind of shots are you looking for...

dwross · May 14, 2018

It's easy to test a range of speeds with just one plate. Make a test strip plate.

Decide on the lighting condition you will be using, including general elevation. Full, midday sunlight will produce a different speed than shade; mountaintops different from sea level. Load a plate. Determine the exposure time for the selected aperture, assuming ISO 12. Make one exposure with the darkslide pulled out about a little less than an inch. Pull out the darkslide another 3/4 to an inch and make another exposure. Repeat this until the darkslide is fully removed. Process carefully with the developer, temperature, time, and agitation protocol you will be using for the rest of the box of plates. Choose the best exposure and determine the ISO from that.

In the beginning, you may want to make a test plate for each box of plates you use, especially if significant time has elapsed since the last one. Emulsion speed changes with the time of year.

Best of luck and fun!

Nodda Duma · May 14, 2018

Meter at ASA 2 and follow the recommendations I put on the box to a “T” at least for the first couple of plates as you get comfortable using them. That info is all hard-earned experience... take advantage of my mistakes.

There is a learning curve, so ask questions... I want you to be successful. Keep all your bath temperatures consistent, include rinsing, and they will turn out just fine.

peter k. · May 14, 2018

dwross said:
test a range of speeds with just one plate

Ha... forgot about that, did some of that when we first started back in film.

Nodda Duma said:
... take advantage of my mistakes.

good point... TRUST... your experience!

Nodda Duma said:
Keep all your bath temperatures consistent

As critical as when does color developing or just generally within a degree or two?

Nodda Duma · May 14, 2018

peter k. said:
As critical as when does color developing or just generally within a degree or two?

Within a degree or two. I've found that consistent temperatures across the whole process is more important than the actual temperature. I don't one-shot chemistry, and the advantage is that I can have everything sitting in bottles in the dark room all at the same ambient temperature ready to go. Same with a tray of rinse water.

-Jason

removedacct1 · May 14, 2018

dwross said:
It's easy to test a range of speeds with just one plate. Make a test strip plate.

Exactly. Denise has excellent advice for you here!
This is how I evaluate lighting conditions for many situations when shooting wet plate. Just treat the first slice as a test strip, as you would when printing under the enlarger.

mooseontheloose · May 15, 2018

Nodda Duma said:
Within a degree or two. I've found that consistent temperatures across the whole process is more important than the actual temperature. I don't one-shot chemistry, and the advantage is that I can have everything sitting in bottles in the dark room all at the same ambient temperature ready to go. Same with a tray of rinse water.

-Jason

But not too warm, right? I’m not sure how I’ll keep temperatures cool enough during the hot humid Japanese summer, when even the coldest tap water runs at 29-30C.

locutus · May 15, 2018

Get a picnic cooler box and fill it with a water bath at the temperature you want (you'll have to experiment with a ratio of tapwater and fridge ice i guess). Immerse your development tank in there or float a tray in it, That should then stay stable enough over the processing time.

Nodda Duma · May 15, 2018

mooseontheloose said:
But not too warm, right? I’m not sure how I’ll keep temperatures cool enough during the hot humid Japanese summer, when even the coldest tap water runs at 29-30C.

Assuming you have A/C and keep your home at a comfortable temp, just pour yourself a big tray or pail of water the day before and let it and all your chemicals come to room temp. Use that water for your rinse: Rinse most of the fixer off in a separate small container of the water, then put your plates in the tray or pail after that "pre-rinse" and agitate the tray or bucket of water with a fish tank circulating pump for 20 minutes.

peter k. · May 15, 2018

How 'fragile' is the emulsion? We have several questions concerning this.

We use daylight tanks, in this case, will us a SP-445 film tank with a modified film holder for the dry plate, and we normally normally invert, .and agitate for the developing and the rinse process.
Can we slowly and gently invert and agitate every 15sec after the first minute, or is the emulsion to fragile for this wash effect?

If this is OK, then we would be ok for the rinse process, but you state that one should rinse "20 minutes if not hypo washed"
Because we live in the dry southwest we have always used the Illford 3 step rinse process, modified to 10,20 and then 30 inversions, with three separate changing of the water and filling processes for the three steps. .
Is this a enough rinse time to process the dry plates?

Again being located here in the desert southwest we have had no problem developing and rinse, using a mix of cool water out of the fridge, mixed with tap water, and bringing the temp to around 68* to 72* F.. We can easily make it cooler to 65 to 68 as you suggest, but will have to have some fun with creativity, for the fixer temp, as we have never really worried about the difference in its temperature before, and will work something out. .No problem!
But what about the higher temps of local weather that we will be shooting in? How fragile is the emulsion to heat? Is there a limitation on how hot the emulsion in the film holder can get, before it starts to deteriorate and perhaps separate from the glass, or go south? Lots of sun and warmth here in summer! The film holders will be in a carrying bag, but the camera and area will be warm if not hot. Last year for the first time we had several days at 114* F. Usually its not any hotter than around 100* F Already this spring we have had 90*
So what are your thoughts about the temperature and the emulsion?

Also, will the heat effect the normal shooting speed based on ASA. 2?
Thanks for your help. p.

Nodda Duma · May 15, 2018

What you propose is pretty much exactly how I process mine. SP-445 tank with the first prototype plate holders that Tim sent me to check out. I use the Ilford wash method (5-10-20).

I used to live in the Mojave high desert, by the way. Plenty of 110+ days..so much so that when it first hit 90 in the fall you’d be a bit chilly. Cognizant of desert high temps, long before I started selling these to others I tested long-term effects of temperature variations by storing plates in the cab of my truck (where it gets up to 140F during the dog days of summer even up here) for 2+ years. I found no issues...as one would naturally expect considering the conditions under which plates were used a century ago. That’s where the 2 yr expiration comes from... I’ve personally verified that 2 year old plates poorly stored are still perfectly fine.

Keep your processing and wash temps constant.

These plates are exactly what you’d use if you were a photographer in the late 1870s / early 1880s. They got great results under worse conditions then today, so you will too.

peter k. · May 15, 2018

Nodda Duma said:
live in the Mojave high desert, by the way

Oh my.. and now in NH!
Lived in Joshua Tree from 1972 to 85, then got married again, and new wife's two kids were teen's. No way would they be wanting to move to the southern Mojave, so came to Sedona.
Still a desert rat and my system is still attuned to the heat... from experiencing the lower desert area, Palm Springs ect, in the hot summer sun as a contractor. We get down there at false dawn, and out by noon or one PM before the main heat hit.
When it got very hot here last year, my wife said, after looking at the temp, how hot do you think it is? Smiling at me. It was a test! Paused, checked my facial indicators and guessed 115* Only a degree to high. But climate is changing, and the humidity is going down in this area, and its getting dryer. .and hotter.

Back to dry plates... about the inversion and temp... that's great, gives me relief!
Just got back from Ace hardware, and donna wanna .widen the notches in the lid, so we can use the same tank for 4x5 and MF. Soooo.. got some plastic to put together two 9x12 holders for the SP-445, .
Onward to the 1870's +

one more question... it states @ Freestyle that the plates are .050 thick.. but how much clearance should we give for the depth of the holder to hold the glass in place?

Nodda Duma · May 16, 2018

The plates are 0.050” thick. I’d suggest tacking on another .020” clearance for easy insertion and to prevent the glass from being clamped in any way.

Stearmann Press is working on 9x12 and quarter-plate adapters btw.

removed account4 · May 16, 2018

peter in addition to the great advice paul and jason and denise ( and others )
have given you .. a couple of other tid bits ...
the emulsion on the plate on different days can have different sensitivities some suggest
it is variable iso because the same day it can be slow or fast depending on the amount of blue light ..
i love shooting them overcast days without harsh sun or shadows, its perfect !
test plate .. you can do a test strip wtih your shutter wide open and drag your dark slide across as
you would a cardboard across a test strip in the darkroom ..

the end of this article might be helpful ( its from tim layton's website ) its about processing the plate ...
http://www.timlaytonfineart.com/making-simple-silver-gelatin-emulsion-osterman.pdf

peter k. · May 16, 2018

Nodda Duma said:
The plates are 0.050” thick. I’d suggest tacking on another .020” clearance for easy insertion

Thank you.. will give it a try, otherwise will have to wait for Stearmann Press to come forth with a 9x12 holder.

jnanian said:
the emulsion on the plate on different days can have different sensitivities some suggest
it is variable iso because the same day it can be slow or fast depending on the amount of blue light ..

Ah... was thinking it was about temp.. Thanks for the clarity.. we don't get much overcast days here but love shooting in the early and late evening light. Will try that time of day first.

peter k. · May 21, 2018

Loaded up first shot, love the 3 tier box.. and the little sheet of paper in between, well done! Went with a perfect fit into and with the old Kodak 9x12 holders. (see post #3)
-- Rinsed in straight distilled water... can you use Photo Flow, as some water spots where hanging?
-- Where out here in a dry climate so wondering how long we should let it dry for the emulsion?

OK first effort... have shot very little with this 9x12 folder, and we had some fun...its so darn light and small.
ASA 2 .. f11@ 4 sec.. and was underexposed, Cropped top and bottom as the legs of Mark Twain were over exposed after saving it with a scan and PhotoShop
Incredible detail.. gonna have to shoot the same shot in normal film and compare.

Nodda Duma · May 22, 2018

Awesome result!

You can do a final rinse in a photo-flo solution.

While drying you will see after a short time the portion of the emulsion that’s still swollen. It usually takes a couple of hours to dry here, probably an hour where you are. You could put it under a ceiling fan or in front of a small fan at low speed to circulate the air to help dry faster.

peter k. · May 26, 2018

Dang blew it...
Note the horizontal emulsion lift... finished development and all was well, then placed plate in a small glass tray, that we had filled with a little distilled water and added several drops of photo flow, and it let sit in there as we cleaned up.
So what could have caused this?
Here's the suspects lined up..
1) Distilled water was not the within the temp of 65-68 degrees. Could have been 75 to 80 degrees. To hot, and to much of a temperature change and emulsion surrendered.
2) Da read the bottle of photo flow afterwards.. Mix 1 part to 200 parts of water. Didn't do that, would to a strong solution of Photo Flow cause this?
3) Left it to long in Photo Flow as we cleaned up.. maybe 3 to 5 minutes..
4) or .. All of the above... and guilty as charged.

BTW.. Shot in a Anniversary Speed 3x4, Early morning sun, 2 Asa .. f 11 @ 1sec.. about 1/2sec more exposure than meter called for, but could use the speed setting on the shutter.
Edit; we focused from the ground glass, on the knife at her waste, but looking at the scan, that's not in focus, the truck behind is!. So the offset of the Adapter must be throwing the focus off, as the cardboard insert that held the film is not there.
Shot using a 3x4 Film Pack Adapter, with a 9x12 dry plate inserted within, with black mat board and foam for pressure against its back and to light seal. Small light leak at the bottom left corner can be seen in the image.
The Film Pack Adapter has no name on it and is larger than the other Grafhic Film Pack Adapter Cat # 1233, from my old dads stuff, which interior is to narrow to take a 9x12 glass plate.
The rest of the story is the unnamed Adapter, had been modified at some time in the past, perhaps by my dad, who knows, with thin ribs of felt, glued to the metal, that allowed the 9x12 plate to fit exactly within its boundaries. Interesting!

Nodda Duma · May 27, 2018

The cause was #1... that and did you put the plate emulsion-down in the tray?

peter k. · May 27, 2018

Yep.. that's what we thought..
No did not put plate emulsion-down in the tray. Developed via Sp-445 with new system work around to cool everything together but did not cool the distilled water for the photo flow. Blame it on a senior moment, or just space case forgetfulness.
So will add a seventh bottle.

Cooling Background setup which worked out real well:
Gets warm here so we have a case of 24 bottles of Arrowhead water that we keep in the car. Each bottle is 16.9 oz, which gave me the idea.
The Sp-445 is set up to use about 16 oz of liquid to fill it for its use.
So measured out and marked 6 bottles with a felt tip pen with the 16oz that level on each bottle.
4 for water rinse, 1 for the development mix of Hc110 and 1 for fixer. Each bottle is marked to what it contains
Now will make a seventh bottle for Photo Flow ..
We mix the developer correctly and fill its bottle Then fill the fixer and now Photo Flow bottle out of our correctly mixed larger storage bottles, then fill the other bottles with tap water and place all the bottles in a small cooler, capped and sitting up right. Press a paper plate down on top of all the bottles, and it folds slightly, but has air gaps on both ends for the cool frozen water from a 16.9 oz frozen bottle to distribute its coolness. The frozen bottle is laid horizontal on top of the paper plate.
Have two digital LCD fish tank aquarium water proof thermometers with long leads. Place one all the way down to the bottom of the cooler and the other above the frozen water bottle. These display the inside temp is outside the cooler. When the bottom one is 65* or less, and the top one is below 68* we take out the bottles set them up and verify the temp with a photo thermometer.

Nodda Duma · May 27, 2018

I didn’t think you placed it upside down but figured I’d ask.

Consistent temperature is more important than actual temperature. I have developed at 75F and had perfect plates come out (My recent flash portrait, for example), holding everything including rinse at that same temp.

Newbie Dry Plate effort..

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