newbie did his first prints!!!

energumeno · Sep 16, 2008

Hi,

Yesterday night i finally was able to do my first prints using an old beseller 23C enalarger with the condensor head. The final results were good enough, at least for being the first time.

In order to get better, I would like you guys that have been doing this forever to comment on the procedure i used.

Paper/Chemicals were;
1. Used Ilford VC RC paper (that was the only one available at that time)
2. Dektol developer, used a dilution of 1:4
3. Kodak rapid fixer, used a 1:7 dilution.

The procedure was
1. Print the image on the enlarger, times were normally between 4 and 6 seconds
2. Put the print on water for 30 sec
3. Move the print to the developer tray and left it for 2 minutes
4. Move the print to a tray with water for another 30 sec
5. Move the print to the fixer tray and left it for 4 minutes
6. Move the print to a tray with water and left it there for 10 minutes
7. Remove the excess water and put the print in a flat surface for it to dry.

As i said, the results were acceptable, the only think that i can readily complaint is that i have some water marks on some of the prints.

As I said, my skills are really primitive so any input on the procedure/chemicals would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

brofkand · Sep 16, 2008

As time goes along, you'll learn those times are more guidelines than strict rules, like developing film.

In any event, wasn't it absolutely amazing? Much more exciting than watching an inkjet printer slowly spit out a print.

I'm actually going to adopt your level of dilution for fix and developer, and try your times. I normally use a 1:2 dilution for fix and developer (using Arista fix and Dektol). We'll see if your levels are good. Thanks for that (probably unintended) tip. I've got a roll of 35mm and a few 120 negatives to develop.

JBrunner · Sep 16, 2008

Sound good dude! Congrats!! You may want to turn that wash water over a few times though. (step 7)

Shmoo · Sep 16, 2008

Congratulations! Magical, isn't it? Have fun with it.

S

vdonovan · Sep 16, 2008

Congratulations! Wet printing is SO rewarding.

I hope you are agitating for the whole 2 minutes in the developer tray. Don't let it just sit there. You should agitate a little in all the trays.

To dry RC paper, squeegie off the excess water and then place it emulsion side down on a (clean) propped-up window screen. Then you shouldn't get spots.

energumeno said:
Hi,

Yesterday night i finally was able to do my first prints using an old beseller 23C enalarger with the condensor head. The final results were good enough, at least for being the first time.

In order to get better, I would like you guys that have been doing this forever to comment on the procedure i used.

Paper/Chemicals were;
1. Used Ilford VC RC paper (that was the only one available at that time)
2. Dektol developer, used a dilution of 1:4
3. Kodak rapid fixer, used a 1:7 dilution.

The procedure was
1. Print the image on the enlarger, times were normally between 4 and 6 seconds
2. Put the print on water for 30 sec
3. Move the print to the developer tray and left it for 2 minutes
4. Move the print to a tray with water for another 30 sec
5. Move the print to the fixer tray and left it for 4 minutes
6. Move the print to a tray with water and left it there for 10 minutes
7. Remove the excess water and put the print in a flat surface for it to dry.

As i said, the results were acceptable, the only think that i can readily complaint is that i have some water marks on some of the prints.

As I said, my skills are really primitive so any input on the procedure/chemicals would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

Kevin Caulfield · Sep 17, 2008

Yeah, repeat the above. Don't let it sit there for the dev and fix. You need to rock those trays. A fair bit.

srs5694 · Sep 17, 2008

vdonovan said:
To dry RC paper, squeegie off the excess water and then place it emulsion side down on a (clean) propped-up window screen. Then you shouldn't get spots.

My preferred method of drying RC paper is to use file folder sorting stands from an office supply store. These are basically just bent wire structures that are intended to hold half a dozen or a dozen file folders vertically. They do the same for wet RC prints. For small prints (4x6, 5x7), I use a fold-up metal dish rack (intended for drying dishes in the kitchen). Both of these tools enable the print to dry vertically, so water runs off quite quickly. Prints usually dry in 1/2 to 2 hours, with the possible exception of some drops that cling to the bottom edge. I usually let them dry overnight to be sure the job is thorough, though; if prints aren't completely dry, they'll stick together if they're stacked, which of course ruins them.

Sadly, this technique doesn't work well with FB prints, which are just too floppy when wet to stand up properly in these vertical stands.

Bob F. · Sep 17, 2008

energumeno said:
Hi,

<snip>

The procedure was
1. Print the image on the enlarger, times were normally between 4 and 6 seconds
2. Put the print on water for 30 sec
3. Move the print to the developer tray and left it for 2 minutes
4. Move the print to a tray with water for another 30 sec
5. Move the print to the fixer tray and left it for 4 minutes
6. Move the print to a tray with water and left it there for 10 minutes
7. Remove the excess water and put the print in a flat surface for it to dry.
...

Thanks!

1: That is quite short. Try stopping the lens down a couple of stops if you can. It's not a problem but that will give you time to dodge and burn if you want to and will be easier to time accurately.

2: Do you mean a pre-wet or soak? That is not required for paper at all.

3: Don't "leave" it in the developer. Tilt the end of the tray nearest you up/down a few cm so the developer sloshes (gently!) over the print for all the time (of course, you may be doing this already but it's worth pointing it out just in case ). At 18 degrees C or above you could probably cut the time to 1 minute or 90s.

4: I use a stop-bath but water will do. It just means you will exhaust the fixer a bit sooner. Agitate as for the developer.

5: Agitate as for the developer. Two minutes in rapid fixer will be more than adequate but four will not hurt. I use fixer at film strength (1+4) so it only needs 1 minute. A non-rapid fixer needs about twice the time.

6: Run water into the tray rather than using still water. If you can get a flow of water over the front and back of the print, 2 minutes are more than adequate.

7: A squeegee and a sheet of glass or perspex is useful here to remove surface water. This should prevent any water drying marks. I put RC prints face up on screens (or in a heated RC print dryer).

You seem to have all the right ideas (apart from that unnecessary pre-soak) so keep at it!

Have fun, Bob.

fschifano · Sep 17, 2008

Congratulations! I remember the first time I saw a print come up in the developing try. I was hooked, and have been at it now, with a hiatus of 20 years in between, since I'm 11 years old. I'll always have those memories of my Great Uncle Lou. He's the guy that created the monster.

Anyway, there are a couple of points that some others have mentioned that bear repeating. Stop down your enlarger's lens a bit to get longer exposure times. One stop down will double the exposure time for a given magnification level. Two stops will multiply the original exposure time by a factor of four. This will allow time for any dodging and burning moves. If you don't know what that is yet, don't worry. You'll learn. A presoak is completely unnecessary for paper. Indeed, it is completely unnecessary for film most of the time too. Pre-wetting for film can be useful if you are processing sheet film in trays, but I don't think you're doing that just yet. Water can work as a stop bath, but you need to change it out after only a few prints. It quickly becomes very dilute developer from the solution carried over by the paper from the developer tray. I recommend that you get a bottle of stop bath and use it according to the directions. It will have an indicating dye that changes from yellow to violet when exhausted. In a pinch you can use white vinegar diluted with an equal part or water. Discard this after a single session. Without an indicating dye, you can't tell when it has become exhausted. Agitating the tray for developer, stop, and fix will insure more consistent results. It is important, so don't skip that. As for washing, ten minutes is more than enough for resin coated papers, but again, some agitation and a few changes of water is required.

Good luck, and have fun with it.

Gary Holliday · Sep 17, 2008

Bob F covered it, but in short; close down the aperture stop on the lens to make it dimmer by 1-2 clicks - aim for an exposure between 10 - 20 seconds...this gives you time to burn and dodge.

Forget step 2, tip all the trays (agitate) for about 30 secs until the image starts to appear in the dev.

Stop, fix and then wash in running water for 10 mins.

Leave to dry in a Paterson drying rack..don't touch until completely dry.

Don't forget to do test strips first to save paper.

all the best.

energumeno · Sep 17, 2008

Thank you all for all the responses and tips!

It was VERY rewarding seeing that great photo of my baby appear on the developer tray. I really can't wait for the weekend to print another roll of film i have!

About the short times on the enlarger. I have been reading a lot on APUG and saw people using times as long as 50 sec!!! i guess my times are quite short then, will try to stop down the lenses to get longer times.

About pre-soak. I was told to do it but if it is not necessary then is better!

About the last wash, maybe i will try to have two trays of water after the fixer and give the prints a 10 minutes wash on each one while agitating. ( i can't think on a better way to do it since i don't have access to running water on my improvised darkroom)

I forgot to put it on the original post but i was moving the trays when the print was on developer and fixer. Thanks for the remainder though!

I liked the idea of the fold-up dish rack for drying prints! Will try it this weekend.

Thank you all for your tips and kind words of support!

nickandre · Sep 17, 2008

I've been printing for a few years with B+W. After that, I started doing some color. It was really cool.

mwdake · Sep 17, 2008

I just hang up my RC prints from a piece of string stretched out in my kitchen using clothes pegs to hold them.
Just peg the very corner to avoid marks and being on a diagonal helps them drain well.
I never get water marks this way.

Stew · Sep 17, 2008

brofkand said:
In any event, wasn't it absolutely amazing? Much more exciting than watching an inkjet printer slowly spit out a print.

I agree 100% . Digital is just plain boring.I've tried it.

Bob F. · Sep 17, 2008

"About pre-soak. I was told to do it but if it is not necessary then is better!"

No: it's a complete waste of time. Some people pre-soak film but I've never heard of anyone doing it for RC prints and I can't imagine what the point would be.

As you do not have running water to hand, put the prints in a holding tray and take them somewhere you do have running water to wash them: bathroom, kitchen, etc.

Cheers, Bob.

ic-racer · Sep 17, 2008

Welcome to the ranks of the elite who print their own!

ic-racer · Sep 17, 2008

Bob F. said:
"About pre-soak. I was told to do it but if it is not necessary then is better!"

No: it's a complete waste of time. Some people pre-soak film but I've never heard of anyone doing it for RC prints and I can't imagine what the point would be.

I have never done an RC paper prewash nor heard of it in common usage, but coincidentally this last week I have been using some Forte Glossy RC and it does have a tendency to form pinholes in the print developer (presumably a condition rectified by a prewash.)

Gary Holliday · Sep 18, 2008

energumeno said:
About the last wash, maybe i will try to have two trays of water after the fixer and give the prints a 10 minutes wash on each one while agitating. ( i can't think on a better way to do it since i don't have access to running water on my improvised darkroom)

Ilford don't recommend soaking papers, but everyone in a waterless darkroom including myself, will hold finished prints in a large tray of water. Carry the tray into the bathroom when a print run is finished for a proper wash - 10 mins in running water for RC paper to remove all traces of fix.

Washing for too long will cause damage to the edges of the paper.

Enjoy!

srs5694 · Sep 18, 2008

energumeno said:
About the short times on the enlarger. I have been reading a lot on APUG and saw people using times as long as 50 sec!!! i guess my times are quite short then, will try to stop down the lenses to get longer times.

One consideration here is that lenses have optimal apertures, usually near the middle of their ranges. If you were printing with the lens wide open, stopping down ~2 stops will not only increase your printing times, but also sharpen your prints (probably by a barely-perceptible amount, although the effect is more noticeable with lower-quality lenses). OTOH, if you're already printing in the middle of the optimum aperture range, stopping down could marginally decrease the sharpness of the prints.

If you're getting short print times in the middle of the aperture range, it's conceivable that the previous owner of the enlarger stuck a ridiculously overpowered bulb in the enlarger. That could actually be a fire hazard, so if you suspect your enlarger is so encumbered, you should check it out. OTOH, enlargers do vary in their brightness, and your print times will also vary with the size of the prints you're making, so a ~5-second print time may be perfectly reasonable. What size were your prints? If they were smaller than 5x7 inches, a ~5-second print time may be hard to avoid.

About pre-soak. I was told to do it but if it is not necessary then is better!

Some people pre-soak film for various reasons. Pre-soaks are also often used with color materials (both film and paper) as a way of bringing the film or paper up to the color processing temperature (typically about 100F) prior to actual development. As others have said, pre-soaks aren't necessary with B&W paper.

srs5694 · Sep 18, 2008

Gary Holliday said:
Ilford don't recommend soaking papers, but everyone in a waterless darkroom including myself, will hold finished prints in a large tray of water. Carry the tray into the bathroom when a print run is finished for a proper wash - 10 mins in running water for RC paper to remove all traces of fix.

Washing for too long will cause damage to the edges of the paper.

My understanding is that RC paper is easily damaged by being kept wet for more than a few minutes. FB paper is more resistant to this sort of thing, so it's possible to hold FB paper in a holding tray for a couple of hours. IIRC, most RC papers shouldn't be kept wet for more than about 10 or 20 minutes, and that time includes time in the processing solutions. Add the wash time and you may be coming close to the total recommended wet time for RC paper, so keeping RC prints in a holding tray is inadvisable. That said, if you try it and can get away with it, great.

energumeno · Sep 19, 2008

srs5694 said:
One consideration here is that lenses have optimal apertures, usually near the middle of their ranges. If you were printing with the lens wide open, stopping down ~2 stops will not only increase your printing times, but also sharpen your prints (probably by a barely-perceptible amount, although the effect is more noticeable with lower-quality lenses). OTOH, if you're already printing in the middle of the optimum aperture range, stopping down could marginally decrease the sharpness of the prints.

The enlarger i got was used and came with the beslar 50mm lens, i have just check the aperture that i was using and it was mostly 16, 11 and sometimes 8which are kind on the lowest range of the lens.

srs5694 said:
If you're getting short print times in the middle of the aperture range, it's conceivable that the previous owner of the enlarger stuck a ridiculously overpowered bulb in the enlarger. That could actually be a fire hazard, so if you suspect your enlarger is so encumbered, you should check it out. OTOH, enlargers do vary in their brightness, and your print times will also vary with the size of the prints you're making, so a ~5-second print time may be perfectly reasonable. What size were your prints? If they were smaller than 5x7 inches, a ~5-second print time may be hard to avoid.
QUOTE]

Well i was doing small prints, 4x6 and the enlarger head was in a low setting. I have just taken apart the top of the head to check the bulb but it doesn´t state the power. What type of bulb should i be using with a beseler 23c condenser head?

Thanks!

srs5694 · Sep 19, 2008

energumeno said:
Well i was doing small prints, 4x6 and the enlarger head was in a low setting. I have just taken apart the top of the head to check the bulb but it doesn´t state the power. What type of bulb should i be using with a beseler 23c condenser head?

I can't answer your bulb question, since I'm unfamiliar with your enlarger, but ~5-second exposures for 4x6-inch prints aren't ridiculous, in my experience, even with the lens stopped down pretty far. A 5-second exposure for a 4x6 translates into a 20-second exposure for an 8x10, assuming the same aperture and filtration.

If you regularly print 4x6 or smaller and want to increase your exposure times, you can do so by using filters. A neutral density (ND) filter in the filter drawer will do the trick. If your enlarger has built-in filters for color printing, you can add both magenta and yellow filtration in equal amounts to do the trick. (You can add cyan, too, if you like. In an abstract theoretical way it won't have any effect on B&W paper, but in practice there might be a small effect.) 30 cc units of filtration translates to 1 stop of exposure difference, so you could set 30M/30Y filtration to change a 5-second exposure to a 10-second exposure.

fschifano · Sep 19, 2008

Since you are using a condenser enlarger, it's pretty easy to add neutral density filtration in the light path, and above the negative. Rosco cinegel lighting filters are the answer. The material comes in 20 x 24 inch sheets that are easily cut to size, and is very inexpensive. The material comes in 1/3, 1/2, 1, 2, and 3 stop densities, and you can stack them as needed with the variable contrast filters in the filter drawer. Adorama has it for about $6 US per sheet and you won't really need more than 1 sheet each of 1/2 stop density and 1 sheet of 1 stop density material to custom tailor your exposure times without stopping the enlarging lens down too far. See here for a better description of the material: Dead Link Removed.

Here's a quick and dirty time conversion table:

1/3 stop, multiply exposure by 1.3
1/2 stop, multiply exposure by 1.4
2/3 stop, multiply exposure by 1.6
1 stop, multiply exposure by 2
2 stops, multiply exposure by 4
3 stops, multiply exposure by 8

newbie did his first prints!!!

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