newbie - 4x5 for landscape?

coigach · Feb 2, 2008

Am in the early stages of sniffing about a possible move to LF. I have no experience whatsoever in LF and will probably ask some daft questions, so please be patient! I currently use 6x7 medium format - so it feels strange and a bit exciting to be a complete novice again...

I am interested in a camera that is as light as possible for landscape work primarily - want to keep the weight to a minimum. I would be looking for a 'standard' wide angle lens in the first instance, and would hope to use a Polaroid back with Polaroid b+w film. Any advice on cameras, lenses? (I've always loved the look of Polaroid b + w so thought I'd better stop admiring from the sidelines and just get going...)

Any pointers on where to start looking a bit more in depth, and the kind of prices I can expect to pay for used gear (UK if possible) in decent condition for this kind of set-up.

Thanks for your help,
Gavin

Nick Zentena · Feb 2, 2008

90mm? I think you're better off starting with a normal range lens and then adding the wide. Some thing in the 135mm to 210mm range will be cheap. Very capable. Very useful.

Light weight cameras aren't my thing-) But remember lenses tend to be a lot lighter then many MF lenses. So you can trade off a heavier camera with lighter lenses if the weight is an issue. More normal weight cameras will be cheaper then light weight cameras.

Ian Grant · Feb 2, 2008

Try finding an MPP MkVII should be about £150 second-hand with a lens, or a Crown Graphic similar price, but watch ebay prices can be too high at times. maybe go for a 135mm lens, slightly wider than normal.

Crown/Speed Graphics can be bought far cheaper in the US and even with postage& tax cost a lot less than in the UK, that goes for most LF equipment too. The Crown Graphics are the lightest and quite easy to hand-hold.

Ian

Laurent · Feb 2, 2008

A Tachihara could be a nice choice, it's lightweight, well built, and more than capable for landscape. For light weight and hiking, a 120/6.8 Angulon can even fold inside the camera with no trouble.

But be careful, LF is addictive ;-) I almost stopped using my 35mm gear since I started using 4/5.

pwitkop · Feb 2, 2008

I'd second Laurent's suggestion for a Tachihara. I've used mine for a great deal of landscape work, and it's light and very capable (not full movements in the rear, but never been an issue for me). A normal lens for 4x5 is 150mm, so a 120 would be nice wide normal, I personally like a long normal (a 210).

Peter

palewin · Feb 2, 2008

First, take a look at the site www.largeformatphotography.info for a community of LF photographers (it is a nice complement to the APUG site) and will address many of your questions. For landscape photography, any of the wooden folding 4x5 cameras will work very well (light weight, and certainly enough movements for anything short of extreme table top or architecture), and while you will probably add lenses as you gain experience, something like the 135mm mentioned in an earlier post is a nice, slightly wide, starting point. Actually, for 4x5, 90mm is the "standard" wide angle, but might not be the most versatile lens to start with. By the way, I've noticed that British posters seem to always recommend MPP or Speed/Crown Graphics as beginner's cameras. IMHO they are heavier than you need (although probably indestructible) so I would try for one of the wooden folders first (unless the price difference forces you to the press camera option).

steve simmons · Feb 2, 2008

Just some thoughts.

Figure out what range of lenses you wqill be using before selecting a camera body.

Take your favorite 35mm lenses and multiply their focal ength by 3 to get an approx 4x5 equivilent.

The bellows on your camera body should be at least 25% longer than the longest lens.

If you want to use anything shorter than 90mm (a 28 equiv) you will want a camera with a wide angle or bag bellows.

Do some reading

Large Format Nature Photography by Jack Dykinga
User's Guide to the View Camera by Jim Stone
Using the View Camera that i wrote.

Any/all of these will be very helpful introductions to large format photography.

I do not recommend the Speed Graphic cameras. Their bellows and movements are limited. Not everyone will agree with this.

See if you can find a workshop to take, a trade show to attend, a store with cameras on hand to play with, before buying anything.

Do the reading.

steve simmons
www.viewcamera.com

Ian Grant · Feb 2, 2008

palewin said:
By the way, I've noticed that British posters seem to always recommend MPP or Speed/Crown Graphics as beginner's cameras. IMHO they are heavier than you need (although probably indestructible) so I would try for one of the wooden folders first (unless the price difference forces you to the press camera option).

MPP's are extremely common in the UK because after WWII they were the UK's main manufacture of Press/Technical cameras.

Crown/Speed Graphics are far less common in the UK, but a Crown Graphic is much lighter than most wooden field cameras. If it's down to cost & weight a Crown Graphic is probably the best entry level 5x4 for landscape work, and they can be used hand-held.

Personally I prefer the extra weight & versatility of a field camera, but they also cost more than a Graphic. Before buying any 5x4 LF camera it's useful to have a look and play with a variety of cameras, I'm sure someone in or near Edinburgh could probably help Gavin, reading is no substitute for getting your hands on and trying LF cameras.

Ian

Ian Grant · Feb 2, 2008

steve simmons said:
I do not recommend the Speed Graphic cameras. Their bellows and movements are limited. Not everyone will agree with this.

steve simmons
www.viewcamera.com

Steve's right I use a Crown Graphic and it barely has enough movements, and is particularly awkward with a 90mm lens. Hence the reason I said I prefer my (Wista) field camera.

Ian

Trevor Crone · Feb 2, 2008

Gavin,

I would certainly recommend, 'Using The View Camera' by Steve Simmons. Another useful LF book for the beginner is, 'Large-Format Photography' by Kodak.

Steve - in the 2002 July/August issue of View Camera you published an excellent conversion chart of 35 mm lenses to formats from 645 to 8"x10". How about putting this on your website. I've found this chart invaluable in helping me choose the right lens over the years.

garri · Feb 2, 2008

I am over on the west coast in Oban, if you fancy coming over to try using LF drop me a PM, I have both a Tachi and an MPP, though its an old on.
I use T55 too so you can give it a shot while you are over here.

I shoot landscapes mainly and the Tachi has all the movements I need. The MPP's are fine for landscape too, they are about 2.5kg.
I use 90/120/135/180/250, all without issues.

As has been said, it is addictive! my 6x6 kit hasn,t seen any action for almost 2 years.

good luck with the hunt.
Gari

Ria · Feb 2, 2008

Here's my two cents' worth: There are many different types of 4x5 cameras out there, all kinds of features, bellows, prices, etc. In order to make an intelligent choice, you have to know what you are going to want out of your camera. In order to know what you want out of your camera, you are going to have to have some experience shooting with a 4x5.
In my opinion, the Speed or Crown Graphic is the perfect camera for your situation. As noted above, although not the most light weight camera around it is quite sturdy. There are those who disparage them for limited movements and bellows; however, I used a Speed Graphic for landscape shooting (w/135mm and 90mm lenses) for five years before getting a "real" field camera and never felt particularly constrained.
So, if I had it to do over again, I would do exactly as I did. Get a Speed or Crown Graphic and start learning how to shoot with a large format camera. Then, when the day comes, (if it comes), that you decide you have outgrown the camera, you can shop around for one that better fits your requirements. And, unless you went completely overboard when you bought the Graphic, you will more than likely be able to get your money back out of that.
Ria

Bob F. · Feb 2, 2008

Press cameras like the MPPs and Graphics tend to have fewer movements than field cameras (which themselves have fewer or more restricted movements than monorails). In particular, for landscape you will want some front forward tilt and rear backward tilt and rise/fall. You can emulate some of the tilts if you don't have them by angling the camera and using whatever movements you do have, but life is easier if you have them built-in.

5x4, and even more so 10x8, field cameras are fairly rare on the UK used market. A quick look on ebay.co.uk shows two 5x4, no 10x8s and a few MPPs and Crowns. New, the cheapest 5x4s are Shen Hao and the Wista (sometimes Tachihara) which is lighter than the Shen but has fewer (but entirely sufficient) movements. Both retail in the £600+ mark though there is a Shen Hao on UK ebay at the moment much cheaper but I know nothing about the seller. New 10x8s start at a 1000 beer tokens (Shen Hao, Tachihara) and go up rapidly from there depending on manufacturer (3.7k for a Gandolfi Traditional).

Also factor in the cost of a suitable enlarger if you are going down that route.

If you can make it to the UK meet-up in Northumbria at the start of April ((there was a url link here which no longer exists) and more recent stuff (there was a url link here which no longer exists) *** warning: loooooong threads! ***) I will be bringing my Shen and there may well be a couple of other LF cameras there.

Have fun, Bob.

Jim Noel · Feb 2, 2008

I don't often agree with Steve, but in this case I do. Handle some cameras prior to purchase. If possible rent one or two for a weekend each inan effort to find out what works for you. Stay away from Graphics or their clones.

steve simmons · Feb 2, 2008

I would certainly recommend, 'Using The View Camera' by Steve Simmons. Another useful LF book for the beginner is, 'Large-Format Photography' by Kodak.

Steve - in the 2002 July/August issue of View Camera you published an excellent conversion chart of 35 mm lenses to formats from 645 to 8"x10". How about putting this on your website. I've found this chart invaluable in helping me choose the right lens over the years.

Thanks and thanks.

There are several articles, including the one you are asking about, in the Free Articles section of the View Camera web site

www.viewcamera.com

that can be helpful to beginners.

steve simmons

Dave Miller · Feb 2, 2008

Re Bob F's post above, I anticipate a minimum of six photographers will be using 5"x4" cameras at some point during the APUG Spring meeting in Northumberland.

David William White · Feb 2, 2008

Lightweight 4x5

I've got the Toyo 45CF and a Caltar 135mm lens that I use for hiking around. The camera has carbon fiber and polycarbonate chassis components and is easily half the weight of any other field camera. The camera can be closed up without dismounting the lens, so it's easy to set up quickly.

The camera doesn't have rear movements, but enough front tilt, rise, swing for landscape photography.

For me, weight is important, as I'm often hiking for hours and carrying my Mamiya TLR as well. The Mamiya weighs more than the Toyo. My tripod weighs more than the Toyo. Should probably get a carbon fiber tripod...

Ted Harris · Feb 2, 2008

I haven't weighed them but I suspect the weight o the new Chamonix 4x5 is close to the same as that o the Toyo 45CF. The Chamonix is a bit less and, IMO, you get a lot more camera for your money. The only drawback is that the Chamonix is not as fast to setup.

JBrunner · Feb 2, 2008

I have three 4x5 cameras, a Crown Graphic, a Speed Graphic, and a Tachihara. When I go out, and I know am shooting landscapes, I take the Tach. If I am motoring about, and I want to have a camera with me that I can set up and use quickly, I take the Crown. When I need a focal plane shutter, I take the Speed. You can substitute any of them for any other to some degree, but those are the strong points, and if, for instance, you have a press type camera, and a field type camera, you will find yourself grabbing the field camera when doing landscape work. If I only had, lets say, the Crown, I could, and would use it to shoot landscapes, but having the benefit of experience, I would be saving my pennies for a proper field camera, while doing so. Cameras are tools, and some tools are better at some jobs, while others can simply suffice. I hope that helps add some perspective to the suggestions people have made.

keithwms · Feb 2, 2008

My first 4x5 was a $300 1960s crown graphic press camera, which I got in excellent condition from some nice lady on fleabay with a lovely 135mm lens. I still use it... with everything from normal 4x5 film, polaroid/fujiroid, and 6x12cm rollfilm back, and with every kind of lens from 65mm up to a 360mm tele Nikkor. It has a coupled RF which is very nice for hiking landscape stuff. You can actually do credible handheld work with the thing, I am serious! After all, it is a press camera.

There is something to be said for a camera that can teach you all the basics and can be had with a lens for $300.

You might also consider a speed graphic if you want more movement and that nice FP shutter so that you can use shutterless barrel lenses.

The graphics fold up like a nice, discrete little lunchbox, and if you perchance drop it into the ocean, you will only lament the loss of the film holder.

Now I am going to go ahead and say something perhaps controversial! If you do decide to invest real money in an LF camera, then go on and get a 5x7 with 4x5 adapter. Even when I shoot 4x5 I usually use 5x7 ground glass so that I can see my circle before I switch over. 5x7 will be a substantially bigger leap in overall capability, especially if you want to try contact printing. And then you can of course do 6x17 panos.

coigach · Feb 3, 2008

Phew, thanks for replies. A lot of good advice there to ponder. Finance-permitting (!) I hope to be able to make the LF plunge later this year so will have plenty time.

Gari, cheers for kind offer, somewhere down the line I might take you up on that .

Thanks again everyone for all your help.

Cheers,
Gavin

John Kasaian · Feb 5, 2008

Ask yourself if you plan on hiking ng distances or working out of an automobile?
A monorail is an excellent camera if you're working out of an auto.
If you plan on hiking IMHO a wooden self casing design is a lot more fun to cart around.
For lenses, I find that I use wider lenses "up close" on more intimate landscapes. For the "grand view" I like longer lenses. If I were limited to one lens on a 4x5 I'd look for a convertible symmar--they are quite reasonable (right now) are very good performers and give you two focal lengths (wide-ish and long-ish) from which to choose.

Oh yeah, don't wait. If you do wait, you'll only wonder why you didn't jump in sooner.

Baxter Bradford · Feb 5, 2008

Hi Gavin

I had one of the first Ebony RSW45s for 2 years and was very happy with it. Light and fast to set up. Used 90mm, 120mm and 150mm lenses, Polaroid, Quickload and DDS and the international back enabled Horseman 6x12 RFH too.

Tripod toppling incident led to it being damaged and I replaced with the Ebony45SU which is far, far heavier. Ebony repaired the RSW to like new condition and I sold it. Would recommend snapping one up if you saw one available. They retain their value which is a good thing, yet initially might make them look less attractive than the Graphics etc.

Uhner · Feb 5, 2008

I was in Gavin’s situation a year ago and found this article useful: http://www.largeformatphotography.info/mono-field.html

I’ve been using a Sinar Norma monorail when hiking around the backcountry for some time now, and I can’t say that the weight of the camera has impeded me.

Claes

Struan Gray · Feb 6, 2008

I'm coming to this a bit late but...

The most important lesson I learnt was to buy *something* now and start using it. Then you can answer your own questions for yourself.

I went for a monorail because they were and are stupidly cheap, and because I wanted a camera that would let me try anything. I intended to sell the camera on once I'd worked out for myself which compromises I could live with, but I ended up falling in love with longer focal lengths and the field cameras that handle those well are the opposite of stupidly cheap.

I too have a Sinar Norma, which has the advantage of a huge liquid market of compatible add-ons and accessories, but the original Arcas are great value too, as are well-made but uncelebrated tools like the Linhof Color monorails. Other monorails are even cheaper for a suck-and-see, but many - like the otherwise excellent Cambos and Toyos - are very bulky and/or heavy.

Rails can be bulky, but the weight is often over-exagerrated. My Norma weighs only slightly more than the Walker Titan I'd really like if I were to buy a field camera, and the lenses, film holders, tripod and other gubbins are all the same. The only real downside is bulk: I just use a big cargo rucksack instead of a daypack, which makes no odds in the hills, but can look a bit strange around the town.

Again though: get something as soon as you can, and use it to take pictures.

newbie - 4x5 for landscape?

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