New to Infrared also; startrails

j-dogg · Feb 17, 2015

Well I have taken the freefall into IR finally with a hell of a first-time outfit, a complete Nikon AI outfit with f2.8 frimes from 28-200mm, so how does this work? I know I have to load it in a completely dark room like a large format sheet-film camera. I'm shooting HIE, Efke IR820 and Rollei 400-speed IR. 135-format. Do these things get shot at box speed? Do they focus like normal visible light, I've noticed all my lenses have these red tick marks on them for IR photography. Do I need absolutely need any special filters? Do color filters do anything for IR like on BW? What does IR do at night for my next question.....star trails.

I know how to set up the shot for star trails but at 100 speed how long can I go before reciprocity failure sets in and I can just expose for 6 hours straight or something? I plan on doing my startrails on an RB67 and 50mm and probably f8 or f16, wont have much light pollution where Im going even on the horizon. I've never exposed longer than 5 minutes on digital and that was a mistake because digital does not account for reciprocity failure

j-dogg · Feb 17, 2015

yeah I know lol.

if someone who actually shoots IR could point me in the direction of a useful IR photography write up that could help.

Bill Burk · Feb 17, 2015

Yes the red tic mark is to adjust focus for IR film. Focus without a filter, look at the number of feet or meters at the normal focus mark, and move that to the IR mark. Then add the IR filter (the one that looks black). You may use a deep red filter instead of the black-looking IR filter but then you will get a lot of regular red light exposure on the film.

Exposure guidelines are difficult to provide - maybe people who use the film daily can answer you. Light meters and rated speeds are not very reliable because meters are not generally designed to show infrared.

I don't know if you have an Infrared Viewer, but I have a hoot of a time taking out the ATN Viper on a hike to previsualize the IR film look.

polyglot · Feb 17, 2015

Read this and start searching the forum. There are endless threads on IR here that tell you everything you need to know. Given your filter question, it looks like maybe you don't have an IR filter. You need an IR long-pass filter, with an R72 being probably the best all-around compromise. Buy a big enough one to fit your biggest lens, and use step-up rings for the rest.

For star-trails, the exposure time you can use depends on the level of light pollution. Since the stars are moving at constant speed, the trail brightness basically just depends on your aperture, but the light pollution will build with longer exposures. So as you do longer exposures, the trails get longer but comparatively dimmer compared to the background glow.

Use Acros, TMY2 or Provia for excellent reciprocity behaviour, and do some googling, especially if you want to record foreground features. Again, loads of good info here if you were to search for it. Also note that stars are very bright and therefore not subject to reciprocity failure but the background glow is dim and therefore will record a thinner exposure due to reciprocity failure. If you use a film with terrible reciprocity characteristics (Fomapan/Arista.EDU 100), it will show much brighter/clearer star trails because the background glow is suppressed by the reciprocity failure.

Digital does not suffer reciprocity failure. It does however have interesting failure modes like hot-pixels and uneven noise from dark-current, especially if the sensor heats up. It's also trivial to stack a whole pile of digital exposures into one long exposure.

Trask · Feb 17, 2015

Can't say I like the thread name very much -- not really appropriate, IMHO.

Alex Muir · Feb 17, 2015

There is a good book by Hugh Milsom. I don't know if it's still in print, but I got a copy easily online. I think it's published by Fountain Press.
Alex

wildbill · Feb 17, 2015

Try the search window.

mooseontheloose · Feb 17, 2015

I'll just deal with the infrared questions.

How old is your film? How has it been stored? I have HIE that has been frozen since purchased (new) but it has some base fog due to age. When it was fresh I would expose it anywhere between 200-400 ISO (depending on the light conditions) for use with a Red25 filter. However, now I would recommend 200 ISO or slower. HIE can be shot with almost any infrared filter, plus red 25 filter, which is useful since you can see through the lens. Also, with this film, I NEVER, not once, ever shifted the focus, and my shots were fine. But I did shoot at small apertures (f/11 usually) so that would have helped. I did do a focus test with Efke and found it didn't make any difference either. However, these are just my tests, YMMV. For Efke and Rollei films you will need the R72 filter - get one for your largest lens and use step-up rings so that you can use it on your smaller lenses.

As for visible/infrared light, here's my take on it. Think of the two together like orange juice. The orange is visible light, plain water is infrared light. They exist together, but we can't actually see the infrared light, even though it's there. In order for your film to see it, you need to filter out the visible light (orange bits) so just the infrared light (water) comes through. Without the filter, you will just have a normal black and white film exposed by visible light. Therefore, it is possible to shoot light sources at night (fire, tungsten lights, etc) with infrared film with no filter, since it is so rich in infrared light you don't really need to "block" the visible light. I have experimented with this in the past (in fact, I think there's a thread about it somewhere on APUG but I can't find it) but I don't have the files available to me at the moment. That being said, while it did work - the infrared images looked completely different to the regular B&W images I shot at the same time - the images were nothing special so I would stick to daytime exposures.

I believe I also read it here from someone that shooting star trails with infrared was a useless exercise, if that is what you are asking. I would highly suggest you do some research on shooting star trails first, and then try it with regular film to see how it goes. There are plenty of threads about star trails here on APUG, do a search. There is plenty of information on the web, you might try here to start with.

Valerie · Feb 17, 2015

Trask said:
Can't say I like the thread name very much -- not really appropriate, IMHO.

Agreed.

bsdunek · Feb 17, 2015

Trask said:
Can't say I like the thread name very much -- not really appropriate, IMHO.

+1

j-dogg · Feb 17, 2015

I planned on doing star trails actually on Velvia 100F since it has a blue color cast.......otherwise some good info here thanks all with the help. I think I know where I'm going.

I know the Rollei isn't too far out of date so it should be fine.

SuzanneR · Feb 17, 2015

Trask said:
Can't say I like the thread name very much -- not really appropriate, IMHO.

Edited the thread title.

MattKing · Feb 17, 2015

Those of us who participate in the Postcard exchanges will attest: Rachelle knows of what she speaks when it comes HIE!

If you really like infrared work, you might like to look for either a rangefinder or a TLR. Those R72 filters are very difficult to see through.

One further point - you will see lots of references to metering at an EI of 12, 6 or 3. That is because the IR filters have lots of neutral density. Technically, our meters don't really meter the IR light, but because the IR accompanies the visible light (Rachelle's orange juice with the water) if you meter the visible light, and use your experience to guide you about how much IR is usually present with the visible light, you can usually estimate how much IR light is around.

But bracket anyways.

If you have access to my APUG gallery, you will see two early experiments with IR and Rollei film.

By the way, don't meter through the filter if you are using an R72 or similar filter.

mooseontheloose said:
I'll just deal with the infrared questions.

How old is your film? How has it been stored? I have HIE that has been frozen since purchased (new) but it has some base fog due to age. When it was fresh I would expose it anywhere between 200-400 ISO (depending on the light conditions) for use with a Red25 filter. However, now I would recommend 200 ISO or slower. HIE can be shot with almost any infrared filter, plus red 25 filter, which is useful since you can see through the lens. Also, with this film, I NEVER, not once, ever shifted the focus, and my shots were fine. But I did shoot at small apertures (f/11 usually) so that would have helped. I did do a focus test with Efke and found it didn't make any difference either. However, these are just my tests, YMMV. For Efke and Rollei films you will need the R72 filter - get one for your largest lens and use step-up rings so that you can use it on your smaller lenses.

As for visible/infrared light, here's my take on it. Think of the two together like orange juice. The orange is visible light, plain water is infrared light. They exist together, but we can't actually see the infrared light, even though it's there. In order for your film to see it, you need to filter out the visible light (orange bits) so just the infrared light (water) comes through. Without the filter, you will just have a normal black and white film exposed by visible light. Therefore, it is possible to shoot light sources at night (fire, tungsten lights, etc) with infrared film with no filter, since it is so rich in infrared light you don't really need to "block" the visible light. I have experimented with this in the past (in fact, I think there's a thread about it somewhere on APUG but I can't find it) but I don't have the files available to me at the moment. That being said, while it did work - the infrared images looked completely different to the regular B&W images I shot at the same time - the images were nothing special so I would stick to daytime exposures.

I believe I also read it here from someone that shooting star trails with infrared was a useless exercise, if that is what you are asking. I would highly suggest you do some research on shooting star trails first, and then try it with regular film to see how it goes. There are plenty of threads about star trails here on APUG, do a search. There is plenty of information on the web, you might try here to start with.

DWThomas · Feb 17, 2015

A few random comments....

Bracket, bracket, bracket!!

Shoot a frame or two without a filter and metered for the normal ISO to serve as a check on your processing.

Keep good notes. Light meters may or may not match the spectral response of film outside the visible range, so readings may not be as precise as we might like to believe. It is good to build a knowledge base of your own processes and gear.

I've not actually tested, but with the EFKE and Rollei films, I think their sensitivity outside the visible spectrum is limited enough the IR adjustment for infinity focus is likely unnecessary.

With the Rollei and the EFKE, a normal reading at their rated speed and then, using a 720nm filter (R72), six stops additional exposure is in the ballpark. If you go to a 760nm or higher filter, you will need a rocking chair for the Rollei exposures -- as in another five or six stops worth.

The old classic 89B filter is about a 695 or 700nm cutoff and will produce decent, but mayhaps slightly less dramatic results. I've used it with some IR effects on Ilford SFX200.

There are some IR filters with cutoffs up toward 900nm. For the Rollei and EFKE stuff, they will behave like steel plates.

Since our eyes don't see what the film sees, intuitive adjustments are dubious.

I've dabbled in it, some subjects are better than others. And the film prices tend to discourage trifling!

Above all, have fun.

ME Super · Feb 17, 2015

(there was a url link here which no longer exists) shows what I've been able to achieve with the Rollei IR400S and a cheap chinese IR720 filter. There are photos too. Now my process is a hybrid process, so YMMV if you're staying with a completely analog process.

Most of my IR work has been on bright sunny days, and the Rollei film works well with the IR720 filter at EI 25 in my opinion.

j-dogg · Feb 19, 2015

Some very good info in here as always APUG comes through. Tonight i will be trying the startrails on Velveeta 100f on an RB67 im thinking f8 and 30 minutes to an hour or so its supposed to be super cold like almost freezing are there any issues i need to watch for exposing film that long in those temperatures?

New to Infrared also; startrails

j-dogg

j-dogg

Bill Burk

polyglot

Trask

Alex Muir

wildbill

mooseontheloose

Valerie

bsdunek

j-dogg

SuzanneR

Moderator

MattKing

Moderator

DWThomas

ME Super

j-dogg

New to Infrared also; startrails

Moderator

Moderator

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency