New to Hybrid workflow

pstake · May 8, 2012

Hi, everyone,

What's your opinion of the v500 scanner?

I've been a member at APUG for a while but finally decided to try a hybrid workflow, mostly because it will allow me to better use my time in the darkroom. I shoot 35mm but have shot 6x7 in the past and have a good amount of negatives that eventually I would like to digitize.

So I ordered an Epson Perfection v500. Any support for this good decision?! Or perhaps it was not a good decision? and made a costly mistake? I did a little homework beforehand and it seems like a good scanner with the capabilities I need. I'm not a pro, just a hobbyist.

Best,
Phil

L Gebhardt · May 8, 2012

From what I have seen the v500 isn't better than my older 4870. I don't consider the 4870 good enough for 35mm film past maybe 8x10 output. But I haven't used a v500 so my opinion isn't worth much.

pstake · May 8, 2012

L Gebhardt said:
From what I have seen the v500 isn't better than my older 4870. I don't consider the 4870 good enough for 35mm film past maybe 8x10 output. But I haven't used a v500 so my opinion isn't worth much.

Thanks ... images that I scan will be for web only. I will still make prints in the darkroom. (if that matters).

Pioneer · May 8, 2012

Epson V500

I have the V500 and have been using it for a while to archive. For that purpose I have no complaints and I have been successfully scanning 35mm, 645, 6x6 and 6x9. I have started to shoot a bit of large format but the V500 is really not designed to handle that size negative. To scan that size I will have to contact print and then scan the prints.

I have found that my scans can easily be used for web use and that they are also useful for up to an 8x10 print out. Some scans are better than others and I have suspected that the restriction is more related to the scanning carriers provided with the scanner or the negative height. I have been working with glass carriers to flatten my negatives. This does seem to produce a better scan since everything seems focused equally across the negative. Occasionally I notice that my scans seem a bit soft, particularly the medium format negatives, so I have just recently begun working with variable height adjustment to better focus the scan. I am hoping that I can improve my scan with these changes but life occasionally intervenes and I have not really had time to make much progress in this direction. I just received my variable height scanning guide from Better Scanning and I have a few 35mm and medium format negatives that I recently developed. When I have the time necessary to focus on what I am doing, I will start trying to adjust the scan height to get the most out of my negatives. Hopefully in the next week or so I will be better informed..

I guess that the bottom line for me is this. The price for the scanner was very attractive. Glass carriers are certainly worth their money as they flatten the negative so the scanner can capture everything equally. I can easily print my 35mm and medium format scans to 8x10 but if I go larger (11x14) all my scans seem to be a tad soft. They seem to print fine using analogue techniques (Beseler Enlarger) so I believe that my scanning methods need more work. This could certainly be my scanning technique as I am relatively new at doing this, or it could mean I need to make some minor height adjustments to the negative carrier to ensure a sharper focus. Right now I have assumed that height adjustments are my next step so that is where I am at for the time being. When time permits I will continue the experiments.

I will say this much, I am still really learning how to do my own enlarging and analogue printing, and I thought that was a complex process. I had no idea! So far I am finding that getting a really good scan is at least as complex, perhaps more so. However, it is all great fun.

Alan Klein · May 9, 2012

Pioneer: Please post your results with the Better Scanning height adjustments after you experiment.

pstake · May 9, 2012

Alan Klein said:
Pioneer: Please post your results with the Better Scanning height adjustments after you experiment.

I would appreciate that as well. I'm wondering if I'll get good enough quality with the stock negative carriers.

Pioneer · May 9, 2012

I will certainly post the results here. I will work on this first part of next week when I get the time.

Herzeleid · May 12, 2012

I am using epson V500 and betterscanning holders for MF film. Default epson holders are really flimsy. Some films curve slight to extreme. betterscanning holders ensure flatness of the film but the sharpness isn't eart shattering. They are very easy to use and quite helpful for some films.

I haven't tried adjusting the height I am satisfied with the default setting. I am curious about the results.

artobest · May 12, 2012

I'm curious as to why you haven't tried adjusting the height if the sharpness you're getting isn't earth-shattering?

chuck94022 · May 13, 2012

Herzeleid said:
I am using epson V500 and betterscanning holders for MF film. ...

I haven't tried adjusting the height I am satisfied with the default setting. I am curious about the results.

Then you literally don't know what you are missing!

tkamiya · May 17, 2012

I have an Epson V500. For price, this is a very good scanner. One fault with it though is the 35mm neg holder. It's has two long strips for I think 5 frames each. There are no dividers between frames. My negs always dry cupped. This would cause middle of the negs to touch the glass and cause newton rings. It's no problem if your negs dry flat; however.

Resolution wise and sharpness wise, it's good. Not excellent - just good. Certainly sufficient for 8x10,or 11x14 with some compromise - good. I wasn't happy with it when I went bigger than that. (realize this is from 35mm negs though) The software that comes with it doesn't always get the tonal range and contrast right, so I end up playing with it quite a bit to get a really good scan.

artobest · May 18, 2012

You could try a glass insert for the holder from betterscanning or direct from a manufacturer. It flattens the unruly neg, although at the cost of introducing some dust unless you're very careful.

Pioneer · May 23, 2012

Glass Carrier

I am using the newton glass inserts for 35mm and that helps with the unruly 35mm curlies. There are still times that I have no choice but to tape things down, but at least the glass insert allows me to do that.

I also recently picked up the adjustable height medium format glass carrier and have been experimenting with the adjustability. I have to say that I have not seen any improvement (or degradation either) in the scan quality and I have adjusted it quite aways. Once I get my computer glitches sorted out I'll continue with this testing.

I do have some scans. Thirteen separate images ranging from no adjustment (which measures at 1.0 from the glass) to 3.4mm after adjusting 0.2mm each time and then scanning 12 times. I am wondering if the negative I picked was not the best for this so I will go pick out another and re-do this test. The one I used was just a snapshot of one of the grandkids riding a bike, probably not the best suited negative for this kind of testing.

So far I do have to say that I have not seen any difference in the scan results. The 1st scan basically looks identical to the 13th scan, to my untrained eye anyway. I will check into what it takes to post my images here and get some of these scans posted so you can look for something I might have missed. Please ignore the dust spots that haven't been cleaned out. I also have another negative that is really better suited for this kind of work, and I will repeat the test with that negative.

pstake · May 23, 2012

Does anyone have issues with light fall off toward one end of prints you scan?

chuck94022 · May 24, 2012

Pioneer said:
I am using the newton glass inserts for 35mm and that helps with the unruly 35mm curlies. There are still times that I have no choice but to tape things down, but at least the glass insert allows me to do that.

I also recently picked up the adjustable height medium format glass carrier and have been experimenting with the adjustability. I have to say that I have not seen any improvement (or degradation either) in the scan quality and I have adjusted it quite aways. Once I get my computer glitches sorted out I'll continue with this testing.

I do have some scans. Thirteen separate images ranging from no adjustment (which measures at 1.0 from the glass) to 3.4mm after adjusting 0.2mm each time and then scanning 12 times. I am wondering if the negative I picked was not the best for this so I will go pick out another and re-do this test. The one I used was just a snapshot of one of the grandkids riding a bike, probably not the best suited negative for this kind of testing.

So far I do have to say that I have not seen any difference in the scan results. The 1st scan basically looks identical to the 13th scan, to my untrained eye anyway. I will check into what it takes to post my images here and get some of these scans posted so you can look for something I might have missed. Please ignore the dust spots that haven't been cleaned out. I also have another negative that is really better suited for this kind of work, and I will repeat the test with that negative.

Scan the sharpest (preferably silver based black and white) negative you have. It must be in critically sharp focus. Scan a small portion of it that includes sharp contrasty detail. Scan a piece near the center of the scanner, not the edges for sharpest sharpness.

Try not to move the target while adjusting height. Scan at the highest resolution your scanner supports. Turn off all scanner enhancements including sharpening, curves, and inversion/negative to positive adjustments.

To me the process is very much like grain focusing an enlarger.

Pioneer · May 24, 2012

chuck94022 said:
Scan the sharpest (preferably silver based black and white) negative you have. It must be in critically sharp focus. Scan a small portion of it that includes sharp contrasty detail. Scan a piece near the center of the scanner, not the edges for sharpest sharpness.

Try not to move the target while adjusting height. Scan at the highest resolution your scanner supports. Turn off all scanner enhancements including sharpening, curves, and inversion/negative to positive adjustments.

To me the process is very much like grain focusing an enlarger.

Developing a roll of test black and white today so I can repeat this test with your suggestions. I hope I can make the height adjustments without changing position of the holder. Last time around I wasn't able to do that. I did tape down the negative and position the glass in the same spot in the slot each time. Will come back with my results when I have something to report.

chuck94022 · May 25, 2012

Pioneer said:
Developing a roll of test black and white today so I can repeat this test with your suggestions. I hope I can make the height adjustments without changing position of the holder. Last time around I wasn't able to do that. I did tape down the negative and position the glass in the same spot in the slot each time. Will come back with my results when I have something to report.

If you are using the betterscanning.com holder, you just have to give each plastic screw foot a 1/4 turn without moving the holder.

A small shift in position shouldn't be a big deal, but controlling as many variables as possible is always the best.

If you aren't seeing any difference at different heights you should consider your process, because there is a big difference between an in focus and out of focus image from the scanner.

Best of luck! It takes some time, but I found it to be worth it in the end, at least for my v750.

Pioneer · May 25, 2012

Following the recommendations posted by Chuck94022 I have some results from my scanning with the Better Scanning Variable Height MF Film Holder.

There are 3 images posted to the gallery under my user name. I haven't figured out how to get them into this post.

The film used was Arista EDU Ultra 100 black and white shot in a Pentax 645Nii with an FA 120mm Macro lens using a tripod. The film was shot at box speed and developed for 7 minutes in Arista Premium 1+9, stopped with water, and then fixed and washed. Pretty standard stuff, no pushing or pulling. Once dry the negative was taped, emulsion side up, to the anti newton side of the holder's glass insert. I tried to maintain the position of the holder on the scanner glass as I adjusted the height but I was not able to do that. The higher the holder gets the more it wants to scoot around on the glass, probably because there is very little traction from the nylon adjusters to hold it in place. I isolated and scanned a 15mm x 15mm square from the center of the negative, repeating the scan for each 0.2 mm lift (1/4 turn) of the negative holder.

Scan Test 001a is the scan from the standard, unadjusted height, of the film holder. This puts the negative 1mm above the height of the scanner glass.
Scan Test 005a is the scan after raising the film holder one full turn. This put the negative 1.8mm above the height of the scanner glass.
Scan Test 008a is the scan after raising the film holder two full turns. This placed the negative 2.6mm above the height of the scanner glass.

Once I reached 2.6mm of lift I discontinued the test since the image was slowly but surely degrading and getting visibly less focused as I progressed.

Your own mileage may vary but it would appear that my scanner (Epson V500) is relatively well focused at the standard 1mm height. Although it does not appear that the variable height feature of this holder is important with my own scanner, I can certainly testify to the fact that having the anti-newton glass inserts for medium format and for 35mm film has been very useful. Regardless of any image improvement they may provide, they are certainly invaluable in taming the occasional unruly negative that wants to curl up and refuse to be scanned.

chuck94022 · May 30, 2012

Thanks for the images. You might very well have a low focused scanner. They do vary.

Questions:

1. At what resolution were you scanning? There seems to be a lot of image data in the portion you chose. I'm using a v750. I scanned a 4x5 negative, small (unmeasured but tiny) portion at 6400 (maximum setting). I only scanned enough to capture a small bit of detail that I could examine very closely, but it was quite large on my screen viewing the raw pixels.

2. Which holder are you using? I'm using the wet/dry mounting station. One of the issues for the v750 is that after a couple of millimeters, the edge of the holder is above the edge of the lip around the scanner glass, so it will drift. The holder includes extra feet that are used to keep the holder pressed up against that lip. So at lest on my scanner, yes the holder would drift while turning, but I would just slide it back "up and right" to sit against the corner. This accurately enough repositions the holder. Yours may be different, just curious.

There are folks with scanners that are well focused out of the box. You could be one. I think it is luck of the draw.

Pioneer · May 30, 2012

I have done a bit more scanning and I am pretty happy with the results at the standard 1mm elevation, which is the standard. I usually scan at a resolution of 4800. With three 645 negatives that tends to take about 10 minutes. I know I can set the V500 at 6400 but I don't think it is actually scanning at that resolution.

I choose to scan a 15mm by 15mm square out of the center of the 645 negative for the test. I could probably have scanned a smaller piece, but that size worked out all right. At the start of the test I could hold the film holder in the corner against the outside edge of the glass, but the edges are beveled on this scanner. After about 1mm of additional elevation the holder was above the bevel and then it wanted to move all over the place. I have shaky hands to start with and since I couldn't steady the holder against the outside edges of the scanner border any longer it tended to skate around pretty good. Not a lot of traction with those little nylon feet on glass. I really don't think it had that big an effect on the results since you can see a steady decline in focus quality as the elevation increased.

The holder is the Better Scan MF Variable Height film holder with the anti-newton glass. I haven't messed around at all with a wet mount and I doubt I want to go there right now.

I will say this much, I do like the V500 scanner. For the price I think it would be pretty tough to beat it. I may move up to the V750, but if I do that it will be to move up to the 4x5 scanning capability. Right now if I have a 4x5 negative that I really like, I send it out to my lab and have it scanned, which is a bit pricey.

I am also happy with the Better Scanning products. I originally purchased the anti-newton glass inserts for the 35mm holder and they were worth every penny IMO. I frequently use inexpensive black and white film and have ended up with some really curly strips of film that I would not have been able to scan if I had not had those glass inserts. Likewise with the Medium Format film holder. As it turned out I guess I don't need the adjustability, but that glass insert has also been valuable in holding down curly film strips.

I have read several posts where people say they do not want to have to keep the extra glass surfaces clean. I admit, the glass surfaces do need to be cleaned regularly but dust and scanning is a continual issue for me anyway so having the extra surfaces to clean just doesn't seem to create that much extra bother. I live in Nevada and dust for us is a way of life. I clean the scanner glass and the Better Scanning glass whenever I start, and several times during the process. I blow off and brush off the negatives as well and I have to say, those negatives tend to be a whole lot tougher to keep clean then the glass is. I spend seconds cleaning the glass and it can take several minutes to get my negatives clean enough to scan. The additional cleaning time required by the glass inserts just doesn't seem to be that big a deal.

chuck94022 · Jun 3, 2012

Pioneer said:
I have done a bit more scanning and I am pretty happy with the results at the standard 1mm elevation, which is the standard. I usually scan at a resolution of 4800. With three 645 negatives that tends to take about 10 minutes. I know I can set the V500 at 6400 but I don't think it is actually scanning at that resolution.

I choose to scan a 15mm by 15mm square out of the center of the 645 negative for the test. I could probably have scanned a smaller piece, but that size worked out all right. At the start of the test I could hold the film holder in the corner against the outside edge of the glass, but the edges are beveled on this scanner. After about 1mm of additional elevation the holder was above the bevel and then it wanted to move all over the place. I have shaky hands to start with and since I couldn't steady the holder against the outside edges of the scanner border any longer it tended to skate around pretty good. Not a lot of traction with those little nylon feet on glass. I really don't think it had that big an effect on the results since you can see a steady decline in focus quality as the elevation increased.

The holder is the Better Scan MF Variable Height film holder with the anti-newton glass. I haven't messed around at all with a wet mount and I doubt I want to go there right now.

I will say this much, I do like the V500 scanner. For the price I think it would be pretty tough to beat it. I may move up to the V750, but if I do that it will be to move up to the 4x5 scanning capability. Right now if I have a 4x5 negative that I really like, I send it out to my lab and have it scanned, which is a bit pricey.

I am also happy with the Better Scanning products. I originally purchased the anti-newton glass inserts for the 35mm holder and they were worth every penny IMO. I frequently use inexpensive black and white film and have ended up with some really curly strips of film that I would not have been able to scan if I had not had those glass inserts. Likewise with the Medium Format film holder. As it turned out I guess I don't need the adjustability, but that glass insert has also been valuable in holding down curly film strips.

I have read several posts where people say they do not want to have to keep the extra glass surfaces clean. I admit, the glass surfaces do need to be cleaned regularly but dust and scanning is a continual issue for me anyway so having the extra surfaces to clean just doesn't seem to create that much extra bother. I live in Nevada and dust for us is a way of life. I clean the scanner glass and the Better Scanning glass whenever I start, and several times during the process. I blow off and brush off the negatives as well and I have to say, those negatives tend to be a whole lot tougher to keep clean then the glass is. I spend seconds cleaning the glass and it can take several minutes to get my negatives clean enough to scan. The additional cleaning time required by the glass inserts just doesn't seem to be that big a deal.

Glad you are getting good results.

Your comment regarding the holder moving around: the v750 better scanning holder (the variable height universal mounting station) has extra nylon screws to deal with this problem. I checked the v500 version and it doesn't have this feature. So I understand your problem.

I sort of wonder what would happen if you scanned at .5mm. I wonder if your focus would improve further?

I never have a dust issue during scanning, and I live in Beijing (definitely worse for dust than Nevada, if you can believe it)! I just blow off the scanner glass, give the betterscanning glass either a dust off blow or a wipedown (fingerprints are a problem for me), and mount. Takes no time at all.

Pioneer · Jun 3, 2012

Nylon screws

I wasn't aware that the V750 mounting station had extra screws. That would help. I think that even placing some screws, three should do it, out on the edges where the holder snugs up against the beveled edges around the scanner glass would also help out quite a bit.

Your comment about dust in Beijing is interesting. I have worked in Lima, Peru and I have lived in Los Angeles. Both cities are dusty as well. I don't know if it is worse then what I have here, but it certainly is no better.

I have learned to wear gloves while scanning and working with my negatives but I have had to deal with fingerprints as well. On the glass they are not too bad but they are a true pain on the negatives.

Thanks for all your help and good shooting.

New to Hybrid workflow

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