New to FB paper

Every one has there first time... Mine is coming up next week.
I been using RC paper before, never had the courage to use FB paper, but.. now the time is coming.
Can I use FB paper as I used to with RC( much longer washing time I know)?
I use Ilford Multigrade IV RC and FB paper så that should be the same.

Jesper

If you are using Ilford MG-IV, you will find a only few differences with FB paper:

1. The time required in the developer will be a bit longer. In my experience, RC paper generally is fully developed in about 1 minute, while FB paper takes at least 2 minutes.

2. Washing time is also longer.

3. You will probably not find a great deal of difference between the papers when wet, but I find that FB papers are far richer that RC papers when dry.

Otherwise, exposure time and contrast filtration should be about the same.

In addition to longer development and wash, read the instructions on your fixer. It may require a different amount of time, too.

Using TT Superfix plus 1+9 dit. ( got a fair offer so got some liters of it.)
Read some place the FB paper should be pressed after washing but can't find out why if even thats the way.
Will post some of the result when done.

Jesper

The biggest difference you will find apart from it looking very different is that it will not dry flat unlesss you do all that is needed to make it do so.
This can be a real pain to achieve. There a few ways to do it:

The fastest is to us a FB print dryer which has a muslin stretched over the print on a heated bed and takes 5-10 mins to dry the print which will have a slight curl in it but otherwise flat.

The next is to dry it between blotters with weight on top and requires several blotters to do it properly and minimise dry time. Expect to have to wait until next day for totally dry print. And it will be truly flat.

The next way is to lay it face down on drying screens. This takes overnight for truly dry print but you will still get some edge curl. Doing it this way is best if done really slowly in cool environment. Do not dry it face up or it will curl more or if you dry in warm environment it will curl more.

Other people clip two prints back to back and I'm sure others will come up with other methods.

The big thing is not to expect the immediacy of having a dry print like you do with RC paper. If you try and hurry the drying process with heat, then unless its in a dryer as in the first option, then you are likely to get more curly prints than drying slowly.

Thx, all of you.
Normally I hang my RC prints with clamps to dry night over, Looks like I going to make some kind of press for making FB prints *

Jesper

Regarding the need for a more thorough rinse with FB papers, I might mention the importance of using a rinse aid (like Permawash) in the 'sit bath' that the prints will be stored in before the final rinse. This aids in quickly removing the residual sodium thiosulfate from the paper fibers, as it acts as a surfactant, reducing surface tension. I'm also in the habit of having a tray in the sink to catch the overflow from my siphon rinse tray; I place the prints from the fixer into this initial 'pre-rinse' tray, to remove the bulk of the surface fixer from the paper prior to placing the print in the sit bath; this prevents buildup of fixer in the sit bath, and helps to ensure a quicker final rinse.

As for paper curl, that's just one of the physical attributes of fiber paper. Some see it as a hinderance, while I see it for what it is: a unique, physical attribute that become a signature differentiating fiber paper from ink jet and RC papers. In fact, I've thought about framing my FB prints in a shallow 'shadow box' type of frame, permitting the paper to achieve its natural curl, as if fiber paper has unique physical attributes that warrant such a special display, much like what is done with alternative printing methods on hand-made papers. The problem with mounting FB paper flat in a matted frame under glass is that it ends up looking much like RC or inkjet papers once it's laid flat behind the glare of glass.

But, to minimize such curl, I will hang the prints to dry in the darkroom until they begin to curl, then clothes pin them face to face; once they're sufficiently dry on the surface I will then lay them inside a large 'coffee table' book, between sheets of acid free card stock (available from Staples office supply store) and let them sit until they're ready to frame. They stay quite flat this way. My current book of choice for storing prints is "Control Space: Rhetorics of Surveillance from Bantham to Big Brother".

~Joe

Here's my point. To most people here it'll sound very amusing, and it's probably something you would never do anyway; but here goes.

Do not use Ilford MGRC for your test strips, then swith to MGFB for the final print. Funnily enough, it doesn't work!

I had the privilege to be in my college darkroom when one of my colleagues made this mistake, and I had to be careful not to laugh.

J

Jonathan Brooke said:

Here's my point. To most people here it'll sound very amusing, and it's probably something you would never do anyway; but here goes.

Do not use Ilford MGRC for your test strips, then swith to MGFB for the final print. Funnily enough, it doesn't work!

I had the privilege to be in my college darkroom when one of my colleagues made this mistake, and I had to be careful not to laugh.

J

Click to expand...

Thx. I could easily had made that mistake...
but that's why we using the FB paper is not the same as RC....


Jesper

You can get some blotters from Firstcall. They also have a FB dryer for 20x16 prints on that page.

http://www.firstcall-photographic.co.uk/categories/washing---drying/40/1

But the Rolls Rocye of FB print dryers is a little pricey but it will do 20x24 prints

http://macodirect.de/analog-trockenpresse-c-1_270.html

Hi Jesper,

There are a few differences between RC and FB papers, but don't let them put you off.

Developing - as already mentioned, FB papers take longer to develop because of the lack of built-in developers. Dev the print until it stops developing. Drain it of excess dev before plunging it into the stop bath.

Stop Bath - use a good, strong acetic or citric acid stop bath because FB papers carry over much more developer. Stop for at least a minute - developer remaining in the paper can cause stains upon fixing.

Fixing - you'll need to fix properly if your prints are intended for long-term storage, archiving or selling. Use fresh fixer, and consider using the two-bath method.

FB papers tend to be more reactive to toning. It's not that you *can't* tone RC papers, but certain results can only be achieved using certain FB papers.

You'll also find spotting aka retouching far easier with FB papers, because in RC papers, the dye spreads too easily. FB papers absorb the dye into the emulsion, whereas in RC it spreads along the base. IIRC, the same is true for hand-colouring.

FB papers are more delicate than RC when wet. Try not to handle them roughly during the processing and washing stages; especially don't use a high-pressure washer at full pressure.

Once you get the hang of it, you'll find printing on 'proper' paper rewarding. The Ilford website has some informative .pdf files. Have fun.

I havn't done fibre based paper prints for a long time but my drying technique was to lay tham face up on newspaper on my sitting room floor overnight. Yes, they dry a bit curly but flatten eventually. My thirty year old prints are still as bright as when new.

Development time is 2 to 3 times as long. Stop bath might as well be twice as long. (It's not necessary, but does extend the life of your fixer.) Fixing time is about 3x as long (6 minutes instead of 2).

Then it gets significantly different.

You rinse off the fixer for a few minutes, use washaid or hypo clearing agent with constant agitation for three minutes, then rinse again to remove the hypo clear. Then you start a timed wash for 20 minutes.

Most "archival" printing techniques call for doing half the fixing time in an initial fixing bath, then a brief rinse, then the rest of the time in a more fresh fixer bath.

Without hypo clear, your wash times are about 3x as long.

You won't damage a fiber print with too much washing (within reason). This is not the case with RC, which starts separating at the corners pretty quickly. (However, don't leave a FB print in water for days, or the emulsion will liquefy and start slipping.)

*The most important practical difference is that fiber prints dry down significantly darker than they appear when wet.* It will take some practice to learn to print for the dried product, and each paper is a bit different as well.

Don't put fiber prints through an RC dryer!

Prints can be air dried, dried in a blotter, ferrotyped (high-gloss finish), or dried on a special fiber drier, which will be easily recognizable by the cloth belt (should be plainly visible).

I find that a dry mount press works well enough to flatten them. I have also used an iron, but the dry mount press works better.

If someone wants loose prints, I prefer to give them RC. With fiber, I dry mount them all as a matter of course, unless there is still possible spotting or the like to do.

One other thing occurs: dry-down. When a print dries the print gets darker as the emulsion shrinks. With RC papers this is minimal and usually not noticeable but with FB papers it is very noticable - your nice sparkling highlights turn grey and your shadows block up. Not nice after all that work!

When you find you have the exposure time correct such that the print looks where you want it to be when you look at the wet print, you need to make the final print with a reduction in exposure of several percent. Test it for yourself - Les McLean has written an article on APUG (there was a url link here which no longer exists) - it will typically be about 8-10%.

People have mentioned the longer development time. Some developers, particularly warm-tone ones, can take even longer: 4 minutes is not unheard of.

Have fun, Bob.

I just finished printing some prints for a friend on Ilford MG FB, which I never use, personally. (They gave me the paper to make the prints.) I read their instructions, and am very impressed! Their fiber process is really quite more simple than I posted above (which is what I was taught is the standard process for fiber). Development is 1.5 to 3 minutes, stop is only 10 seconds, and fixing time in Ilford Rapid Fixer is only 60 seconds at normal film dilution (1:4) and 120 seconds at normal paper dilution (1:9). They recommend the film dilution for only one minute when doing archival processing, followed by a five-minute rinse, ten minutes in washaid, and a five minute final wash.

This is really incredibly simple compared to the way I normally do it. I wonder if their same process will work with the other papers I use (Fotokemika Emaks, Oriental Graded, Oriental VC, Ilford Warmtone MG).

Some people think the Ilford rapid processing suggestions are at best borderline. My own testing in my darkroom sort of agrees with that observation. The Ilford recommendations assume using their fixer which may or may not be as rapid acting as others.

I find 60s fix is borderline using Agfa FX Universal at film strength and extend it to 90s. I also use 10 minute washes rather than 5 between the hypo-clear stage for practical reasons (see below). Doing it this way gives me no indication at all using the HT2 residual hypo test. I also test the fixer to keep silver content below 1g/l using Tetenal test strips; fresh fixer is essential to this method.

In practice, the print is washing while I expose and process the next print (I use a Paterson Rapid RC print washer which is excellent for this purpose) so it normally gets 10 - 15 mins wash. The first print then comes out of the washer and is put in hypo-clear solution (maximum 10 8x10 prints per litre) and the print that was just processed goes in the washer to start it's 1st wash.

After the next print is processed (another 10-15 mins) the first print comes out of the hypo-clear and goes in the 2nd washer. The print in the 1st washer goes into the hypo-clear and the newly processed print goes in the 1st washer.

After the next print is processed, the first print comes out of the second washer, gets squeegeed and put face down (or face up if Warmtone) on a drying screen. All the prints move one step along the chain as before.

And so it goes on: each print gets moved along every 10 - 15 mins.
Of course, this is an ideal situation and sometime I have to hang about a few minutes if I've exposed and processed a print in under 10 minutes but it generally works well.

I rarely tone in the same session - too much going on and too many trays - I'd only get confused and end up sepia toning the cat by mistake...

Cheers, Bob.

Well first time are going to with out any Hypo ( don't have it..) so I wash for a looong time...

Bob how do you get the sepia toned cat into a frame? som kind of 3D photo? *LOL*

thx. for all the advises now I only watinge for the postman to deliver my paper...


Jesper

I was at Freestyle Camera in Hollywood two days ago and while speaking with a female sales clerk she revealed to me that she only uses fiber paper. I asked her how she flattens her fiber prints and she stated she uses Edwal's Super Flat liquid which produces prints as flat as RC paper does. I didn't have enough cash with me to buy the bottle on the shelf but I will when I return in a few days.

Regarding the curl when drying, I hang the prints until the surface water is gone, then tape them (all around) to a sheet of glass using paper tape (brown wrapping tape, about 1 1/2 inches wide). I read about this here I think, but it works very well. I leave them taped for about a day, then cut the prints out. A small border of tape is left on the print.

CCOS said:

Well first time are going to with out any Hypo ( don't have it..) so I wash for a looong time...

Bob how do you get the sepia toned cat into a frame? som kind of 3D photo? *LOL*

thx. for all the advises now I only watinge for the postman to deliver my paper...


Jesper

Click to expand...

You would be amazed at HOW confused I can get when things get too complicated - sepia toned cats are only the beginning of what can go wrong ...

BTW, hypo-clearing agent is not "hypo". Quite a few people seem to be saying this lately. "Hypo" is the old name for fixer (specifically the sodium thiosulphate active component) and still used as a slang term for fixer in general. Hence, "hypo-clear" is used to help clear the fixer (hypo) from the paper.

If you say you had no hypo, it sounds like you are saying that you had no fixer which obviously gives a very different meaning. Use "hypo-clear" or "HCA" (Hypo Clearing Agent) and all will be understood.

Have fun, Bob.

Harman/Ilford was supposed to be releasing a version of MG FB that dries flat. See (there was a url link here which no longer exists). Did it ever come to pass?

Also, (there was a url link here which no longer exists) might be useful.

there's no great mystery about drying FB paper. You just need to know that the emulsion dries faster than the paper backing and therefore curls the paper because it shrinks as it dries. If you allow it to dry faster than the paper, then that bends and moves the paper fibres which then set in the curled position and are a real bugger to make straight again when the paper is dry. It is far better for the paper to dry in a flat position which is why the blotters are a good idea and they are cheap enough to try out when starting with FB. Or dry very slowly in cool temp which is often impractical in the middle of summer.

Hi Rob,

or your dry to 87% in a wine cellar between the bottles or, allow me to write that, or much better look for a champaine cellar.
Palatinate

[QUOTES=rob champagne;662233]
"There's no great mystery about drying FB paper.
You just need to know that the emulsion dries faster
than the paper backing and therefore curls the paper
because it shrinks as it dries."

Now that is something that untill a few months ago
I had not considered. My corrugated board stack
drier has always turned out FB prints 'flat' but
concave towards the emulsion. Your example
assumes no paper containment.

"If you allow it to dry faster than the paper, then
that bends and moves the paper fibres which then
set in the curled position and are a real bugger to
make straight again when the paper is dry."

There is a lot more paper than gelatin. I might add
"If you allow it to dry AS fast ... " May be correct.
Even more correct; the emulsion should dry more
slowly?

"It is far better for the paper to dry in a flat position
which is why the blotters are a good idea. they are
cheap enough to try out when starting with FB."

Perhaps. I gave a blotter book a try a several years
and did not like the results. Many years ago I used
a Kodak CORRUGATED Blotter Roll. Worked like a
charm.

To test, I've dried a few prints using waxed paper
top sheets; the emulsion side. The slowing of water
vapor diffusion does appear to have resulted in truly
flatter prints. My next test will effectively block 100%
of the emulsion side diffusion.

A Corrugated Stack Dryer costs nearly nothing, weighs
nearly nothing, and takes up nearly no space. Easy to
stow away. Flat and Dry in one operation. Dan

BTW a well written, understandable post. Dan

Two corrections:
I gave a blotter book a try several years AGO
and did not ... 4th up

To test my Corrugated Stack Dryer, I've dried
a few prints ... 3rd up

From bottom; 3rd and 4th paragraphs up. Dan