New to 4x5: Looking for Inexpensive 4x5 Lens

I dunno man, due to the cost of sheet film and paper, I would not try to go on the cheap, but instead pony up for a decent $200-$300 lens from KEH that has a return policy on it in case the speeds stick. If you pinch pennies on some ok at best lens and then find out the shutter speeds are off and it needs a CLA, what is that time and money worth to you?

To me, the lens *is* the camera, especially when you can just swap boards down the road if you change setups...

And you can find deals now and then, I got a new condition 180mm 5.6 Apo-Symmar for $220 shipped from a guy on Craigslist, it is one of my favorite lenses and works flawless.

Dan Fromm said:

I have Polaroid MP-4 shutters. They are #1s. The 135/4.5 Tominon is made to screw into the front of a #1. I've had three of them. They all fit my MP-4 shutters.

Why do you think I might be mistaken about this? Why do you think I might be trying to mislead you? If you fall off a cliff I won't mourn but I'll get no pleasure from your demise.

I have no idea what diameter Chris thinks is 1.5" or so. I do know the #1 standard. You can find it here: http://www.skgrimes.com/products/new-copal-shutters/pressshutters

I think it might be time for me to ban myself from APUG. Too many damfools here.

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I think it's time for a Xanax for Mr. Fromm. Telling people they deserve misfortune because they don't revere you as a saint is pretty sad.

I am looking on eBay and Craigslist for lenses, right now my budget doesn't allow for an expensive lens and I don't want the camera to sit in my room until I have a lens that meets APUG standards.

I am seeing some Fujinon's for less than $200, actually quite a bit less. Fuji makes great lenses, I'll have to look more into them.

If I spend $40 for the lens from Chris and it turns out to not be a very sharp lens, I'll use it for portrait or whatever. If it's a great lens, I just got a great lens for $40. I don't see a downside here.

If it needs a CLA, I'll send it back to Chris. He's graciously allowing me to try out the lens before I pay him for it.

mp4 shutters are copal 1, they are self cocking press shutters that have 2 threaded sockets and a top speed of 1/125s
the shutter WILL need a cla, they all do, unless he had his CLA before he sold it to you.
( add that 50-100$ + postage of your CLA isn't local to the price of whatever lens you buy. )
the tominon lenses are not really very good lenses for general photography. i must admit i have a 127 and it is OK ( stopped down )
not a lens i tend to use all the time. the shutter takes a small throw release and if it is a long throw, it slides off the
anvil and gets jammed in the shutter. it was the lens that came with my speed graphic through, so i use it ...
the 135 will work OK ( stopped down ) but if it was me, i would spend the $$ on something else .. the other lenses mentioned in this thread
by whitey, ian, dan, pmk-25 and the others are better lenses, and worth the $$...
if you NEED a shuttered lens, poke around for a symmar convertible, that might be another lens to look into, it is 2 lenses in 1, it cover 4x5 without a second
thought it is paired - the 150 with a 265 -- worth the $$ way more than a polaroid tominon ...
plus all of the other lenses mentioned have re-sale value is more than 35$ ... (people tend to buy these lenses for the shutter, not the lens,
because a g claron screws right into the shutter and they tend to have a large image circle stopped way down .. )

another lens you might look into is one of reinhold's wollaston meniscus lenses, wide open is beautifully dreamy, and with the supplied! waterhouse stops
it is sharp, they also are in your price range and are a barrel lens which is perfect for paper negatives ...
which might be more useful than film to get your feet wet ...
process it in a tray by inspection, and load it in a safelight.

i can't say anything about plastic tanks, i have a yankee, and it has served me well for 30+ years, and it won't transfer your 98.6ºF to the chemistry ...

E. von Hoegh said:

Well?

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jnanian said:

mp4 shutters are copal 1, they are self cocking press shutters that have 2 threaded sockets and a top speed of 1/125s
the shutter WILL need a cla, they all do, unless he had his CLA before he sold it to you.
( add that 50-100$ + postage of your CLA isn't local to the price of whatever lens you buy. )
the tominon lenses are not really very good lenses for general photography. i must admit i have a 127 and it is OK ( stopped down )
not a lens i tend to use all the time. the shutter takes a small throw release and if it is a long throw, it slides off the
anvil and gets jammed in the shutter. it was the lens that came with my speed graphic through, so i use it ...
the 135 will work OK ( stopped down ) but if it was me, i would spend the $$ on something else .. the other lenses mentioned in this thread
by whitey, ian, dan, pmk-25 and the others are better lenses, and worth the $$...
if you NEED a shuttered lens, poke around for a symmar convertible, that might be another lens to look into, it is 2 lenses in 1, it cover 4x5 without a second
thought it is paired - the 150 with a 265 -- worth the $$ way more than a polaroid tominon ...
plus all of the other lenses mentioned have re-sale value is more than 35$ ... (people tend to buy these lenses for the shutter, not the lens,
because a g claron screws right into the shutter and they tend to have a large image circle stopped way down .. )

another lens you might look into is one of reinhold's wollaston meniscus lenses, wide open is beautifully dreamy, and with the supplied! waterhouse stops
it is sharp, they also are in your price range and are a barrel lens which is perfect for paper negatives ...
which might be more useful than film to get your feet wet ...
process it in a tray by inspection, and load it in a safelight.

i can't say anything about plastic tanks, i have a yankee, and it has served me well for 30+ years, and it won't transfer your 98.6ºF to the chemistry ...

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Do you have the currently sold Yankee daylight tank?

I have plenty of experience using 4x5, we used them in Photo 2 (Camera and Light) at school so I have experience using deep tank processing (it was always perfect for me, using replenished D-76 and FP4). Never done tray processing, but it can't be too hard. I forgot that I had about half a box left of FP4 from my class, and bought a box of Delta 100 (it was either that or HP5, those were the only films the camera shop had when I bought the camera).

I do need a shuttered lens, my camera doesn't have a focal plane shutter and in daylight shutter speeds are too fast to be very accurate using a cap as a shutter. Paper negatives are another matter obviously.

I plan on shooting this camera for a long time, so there will be plenty of time to get good lenses. Since Chris is letting me try before I buy, if the shutter needs a CLA I'll just send it back to him.

I'll probably buy a Fujinon. They're inexpensive on KEH, probably even more so on eBay. And they have a good reputation from what I hear.

as i said ... i have a yankee roll film tank that is 30+ years old
i didn't know they made sheet film tanks.
reihold also sells drop-shutters that fit right on the front of his lenses.
if they aren't fully available yet, they will be soon. so i wouldn't give up on
his cost effective and great solutions ..

do you have a dollar store/family dollar near you ?
they sell tupperware tubs that easily fit 4x5 hangers
if you are used to deep tanks and hangers just get 3 tubs
fill one with your developer, one with water and one with fixer.
i used a 3quart tupperware container for hangers for a while
before i switched to trays.

do you have a shutter speed tester ? it might come in useful with chris' lens,
(it will need a cla, like most lenses ... )

jnanian said:

mp4 shutters are copal 1, they are self cocking press shutters that have 2 threaded sockets and a top speed of 1/125s
the shutter WILL need a cla, they all do, unless he had his CLA before he sold it to you.
( add that 50-100$ + postage of your CLA isn't local to the price of whatever lens you buy. )

<snip>

if you NEED a shuttered lens, poke around for a symmar convertible, that might be another lens to look into, it is 2 lenses in 1, it cover 4x5 without a second
thought it is paired - the 150 with a 265 -- worth the $$ way more than a polaroid tominon ...
plus all of the other lenses mentioned have re-sale value is more than 35$ ... (people tend to buy these lenses for the shutter, not the lens,
because a g claron screws right into the shutter and they tend to have a large image circle stopped way down .. )

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John, I think you're confusing a couple of shutters.

The Polaroid MP-4 shutter (the face plate says just that, Polaroid MP-4) has a shutter release lever, one cable release socket and a "shutter open" lever (also called press focus lever) like regular cock-and-shoot Copal #1s. These shutters have no diaphragms so are useless for most purposes. I have one in front of me, I'm not making this up.

Prontor Press #1 shutters for the Polaroid MP-3 system have no shutter release lever and two cable release sockets, one for tripping the shutter, the other for opening it for focusing. Some have diaphragms, others, e.g., as supplied for the 35/4 Eurygon, don't. This is from memory, I'm still not making it up.

The Copal Polaroid shutter your (mine, too) 127/4.7 Tominon is in is a #1 press shutter, has one cable release socket and no provision (besides using the shutter's "T" speed setting) for opening it for focusing. My 127/4.7 Tominon is in my camera bag but I have one of the shutters with a 210/5.6 Fujinon in front of me.

Copal Polaroids as sold with Tominon lenses in them (not front-mounted on) them aren't to the Compur/Copal/Prontor/Seiko #1 shutter standard. The standard tube length is 20.00 mm, Copal Polaroids have 22.00 mm tubes. In addition, they have limited maximum openings. The one I put my 210 Fuji in won't give full aperture with that lens. But they're cheap and lenses for #1 that are mounted in them still pass light and form images so their users are happy.

One of my friends wrote a ray-tracing program and uses it to estimate lenses' performance. Eric Beltrando, visit his site www.dioptrique.info . When I discovered that my cheap Copal Polaroid shutter was too long and asked him what effect the extra 2 mm would have on a 6/4 plasmat's performance, he told me that in this class of lens performance is relatively insensitive to cell spacing and that the ill effects are far off axis. It was safe for me to use these lenses on my little 2x3 Graphics. Dagor types' performance is much more sensitive to cell spacing, so I shouldn't use my Beryls or my one dagor type G-Claron on Copal Polaroid shutters.

Cheers,

Dan

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned Rodenstock Geronar, also sold as Caltar IIe, lenses. They were inexpensive new and really (usually) cheap used. Excellent lenses stopped down, available in at least three focal lengths; 150, 210, 300. They all allow for camera movements, which the Tominons will not.

Dan's info re: the MP-4 shutter is spot on, the aperture is in the lens, not the shutter.

JD

hi dan

thanks for the info .. i always thought the mp shutters were the same,
it just goes to show the more i think i know, the less i really know
good to know about the cell spacing and gclarons, i usually use my 150 to do copy work
on my speed graphic so i don't bother with a shutter ...

i'll check out the site you linked to ...

john

jnanian said:

hi dan

thanks for the info .. i always thought the mp shutters were the same,
it just goes to show the more i think i know, the less i really know

john

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Welcome to the club. Some years ago, during my annual review my supervisor set me up by praising my open-mindedness while solving a problem, then zinged me with the comment that once I'd made up my mind I closed it. He saw that as a weakness that needed work. I thought things over, decided he was right, and ever since then have tried to check, among other things, what I thought I knew ...

Cheers,

Dan

On e-bay, I have found lenses in shutters available from $25.00 and up. Makers from Baush&lomb to Zeiss. If you are not familiar with these lenses, here are a few... B&L Tessar, Schneider Xenar, Wollensak Velostigmat, Wollensak Raptar, Kodak Ektar, Ilex Paragon, and others. These lenses are all common for press type cameras. There is a much larger supply than demand (for now)

brofkand said:

I just got a Calumet 4x5 camera. This is an older style Calumet, it's gray with a smaller lens board than the black Calumets we used in school (they were co-branded as Cambo cameras). My calumet looks just like this one: http://www.ebay.com/itm/CALUMET-4X5...lm_Cameras&hash=item3f19dab390#ht_5697wt_1386 .

It came with a recessed Copal 0 lens board and 3 film holders, but no lens. In the meantime I am planning on just taping a pinhole onto the lens board, but I'd like to have a lens for the camera obviously.

I want to spend as little as possible, hopefully under $100 for a lens (and lens board unless a recessed lens board would work). What can you recommend in the sub-$100 price category for a 135-210 (somewhere around there would be fine) lens with decent performance? Not necessarily looking for a tack-sharp, awesome lens (my budget won't allow that), but I would like a lens that would offer some good 11x14's with some 16x20's as well.

Thanks!

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You might want to consider making a pinhole lens. Use the thinest needle you can find and about a 1 3/4 x 1 3/4 square cut from a Coke Can. Drill a small hole in the center of the square with the needle. Attach the square to the lensboard with black electrical tape and then start experimenting. Fast cheap way to get started with your 4x5
Dave