New to 4x5: developing questions

m_liddell · Mar 29, 2007

I have recently managed to get hold of an Ebony RSW45 and Schneider 110mm XL second hand. I intended to use it mostly for roll film (and buy a shorter lens to go with the Schneider) since I was very put off the hassle developing 4X5. Since Ive had it Ive been thinking about giving 4x5 a go, just how bad is developing it?

I have no darkroom but have a very small bathroom with no windows. Quantity of developer, scratch risk and horror stories of uneven development has ruled out trays, tanks just dont seem to work for 4x5, which leaves BTZS tubes.

How easy are they to load? Im a bit of a klutz when it comes to loading even 35mm and 120 so Im scared! How many sheets am I likely to screw up before I get this right?

Film will be acros in quickload and dev will be exactol lux (pretty resistant to uneven development). How do I hang the sheets up to dry?

Nick Zentena · Mar 29, 2007

Jobo tanks work fine for 4x5. You can even use them for smaller formats. Developer etc will depend on how you do things.

How do you dry prints? I just use clips and hang to dry.

Peter Williams · Mar 29, 2007

I just picked up a jobo 2521 simply for the convenience of being able to develop in daylight. Loading seems to be much easier than the plastic reels that I use for 120 - these reels don't ratchet which is where most of my smaller format loading gets hung up. I will be using it for inversion processing and I probably won't save much, if anything, over tray development. So far all I have done is tray development and the first few batches did have some scratched negs. After taking some advice here and limiting to 6 sheets and rotating with emulsion side down, I don't have any problems. If you haven't yet tried tray developing, it's not as bad as you may have heard.

Peter

noseoil · Mar 29, 2007

I would use the BTZS type tubes and see what you get. You can easily make a couple of them by using 6" x 1 1/2" abs plastic drain line (hardware / plumbing store), caps, threaded plugs and a femal coupling sleeve. I haven't used your developer, but the tubes work very well. I would suggest using pyrocat-hd made with gylcol (photographers formulary) as it is a one-shot developer and won't have problems with aging if it takes you a while to use it up.

Use small sheets of plastic window screen the size of your film (slightly larger with a "tab" on one long end) to roll the film in before sliding it into the tube. This makes it easy to remove after you are done. The tubes work very well and are easier than scratching with a shuffle in a tray. Downside is that you will take some time if you have a lot of film to process. tim

Konical · Mar 29, 2007

Good Morning,

4 x 5 developing is not "bad" at all; in some respects it's simpler than processing roll film. The tips above on BTZS and Jobo are well worth considering. For cheap, virtually foolproof, and rather small chemical amounts, it's hard to beat a color print processing drum on a motor base. There have been some extensive discussions of the topic here within the last year or so. SEARCH for "drum" or "JOBO" or "Unicolor" or "Chromega" or "rotary" or "dip and dunk" or "tray."

The best approach may vary depending on the volume of processing you anticipate. Most of us have our method preference as the numerous posted comments will indicate.

Konical

mjs · Mar 29, 2007

Considering that developing sheet film in trays is a process well over a century old, I'd take "horror stories" about it with a grain of salt. Like any skill (including loading Jobo drums or BZTS tubes in the dark,) it takes a certain amount of practice in order to learn to do it well, but then how many of us really need to be able to shuffle a dozen 8x10 films in a tray like Ansel Adams?

I'm no mechanical genius and my muscular coordination has been charitably described as "retarded" but even I can develop sheet film in trays without mucking it up. Why don't you give it a try before being so quick to discard the idea? It's certainly cheap enough.

mjs

Richard Lupu · Mar 29, 2007

For me the HP Combi-Plan is great. Well worth the $80 USD. If you think you may move from 4x5 at some point you may just go ahead and take the tray plunge now

bwakel · Mar 29, 2007

Richard Lupu said:
For me the HP Combi-Plan is great. Well worth the $80 USD. If you think you may move from 4x5 at some point you may just go ahead and take the tray plunge now

I'll second the Combi-Plan, I've just developed my first ten sheets of 4x5 using a Combi-Plan, bought from Robert White in the UK, and it was a breeze. I had a bit of an issue with the first four sheets because I didn't assemble the film holder properly but since then it's been easier than messing about with roll film. The 4x5 sheets seem to dry faster than roll film too and the only scratching I've had was when I dropped a sheet into the bath and scratched it when trying to pry it from the enamel surface.

Barry

bwakel · Mar 29, 2007

m_liddell said:
Film will be acros in quickload and dev will be exactol lux (pretty resistant to uneven development). How do I hang the sheets up to dry?

Meant to say, I simply hang my 4x5 sheet films from a corner using a clothes peg attached to an indoor clothes drying rack over the bath. Seems to work fine with no film creasing.

Barry

Bob F. · Mar 29, 2007

I use Jobo 25xx series tanks and reels all the time with zero problems. Tricky to load at first, you soon get the hang of it.

Hanging up film: I don't use it myself, but have read somewhere that Acros has a small hole punched near one corner. Get a paperclip and straighten it out so it has a hook at each end: one end goes on a string stretched somewhere where there is no dust and the other end hooks through the hole in the Acros. On my FP4+ etc I use normal roll-film clips, but just use one grip in a corner of the negative. I also use wood clothes-pegs if I run out of clips...

Have fun, Bob

fhovie · Mar 30, 2007

I use tubes for 8x10 - I am clever and can do 2 at a time. I can do 18 at a time in my Jobo. I would not want to do 4x5 one sheet at a time. Get a Jobo now so you can enjoy it your whole life.

grahamp · Mar 31, 2007

I still use tubes as small inversion tanks (see Dead Link Removed ) for the odd sheet, though once I have a half-dozen or more sheets backed up it makes sense to warm up the CPE-2+. I am fortunate in that when I found my used CPE it came with two tanks with 2509n reels. This way I can process 8-12 sheets before I need to dry the reels. That is also about as much as I can handle in my drying space.

GeorgesGiralt · Mar 31, 2007

Hi !
I've used all method here.
The worst was the Combiplan. I was and still am unable to get unscatched negs developped evently from it.
I now use the Jobo 2521 loaded without the special device (practice in daylight with scratch film to get used to it) as you use a Paterson for 120 or 135 film.
The only drawback are the 1.45 liter chemistry it takes to process 6 sheets, but if you use something like Rodinal or HC110 it comes out cheap.
Frankly, it is one of the very best route for a really perfect 4x5 negative !
And these Jobo can be found cheap now that all the Pro are turning digital !
And, who knows, if one day you extend to E6 at home it would become usefull for these huge trannies (but for that you would need a processor)

Raphael · Apr 2, 2007

Newbie on 4x5 processing, too

Hi Georges and All,

GeorgesGiralt said:
[...]
I now use the Jobo 2521 loaded without the special device (practice in daylight with scratch film to get used to it) as you use a Paterson for 120 or 135 film.
The only drawback are the 1.45 liter chemistry it takes to process 6 sheets, but if you use something like Rodinal or HC110 it comes out cheap.

I tested for the first time 4x5" B&W processing two day ago, and I am very happy to see this thread ! I got scratches on filmplan, because two sheets falling down when I suspended it for drying Next time I will use wooden clothespin, as recommended above.

Georges, what "special device" do you meant ? I own the 2521 Jobo tank, with the 4x5" reel, and use it on a CPA processor.

I saw somewhere else that there is a sort of two black plastic "blades" that can (should ?) be clipsed on each side of reel, is that the special device ? What is their purpose ? Loading ?

I didn't got these things when I bought the 4x5" reel, should I search for it ?

Best regards,

Raphael

Nick Zentena · Apr 2, 2007

If you get the 4x5 "kit" it includes a loading base. Doesn't hurt but not a big deal. The black inserts are part of the 2509N reels and if you bought them new they should have been included.

fhovie · Apr 2, 2007

Buy the kit - the black plastic spacers keep the film from moving or bowing. The loader makes it easier to get your 6 sheets on the spool. I use the system for hand processing -I don't own (or plan to own) a CP2 but I do have some rollers that are handy for color processing. I believe I get more accutance with hand processing rather than using continuous agitation.

grahamp · Apr 2, 2007

The 2509n loading jig can be harder to use than putting the film in directly. Attaching the deflector plates can be tricky - you need to learn to feel the locating pins.

Raphael · Apr 4, 2007

thanks

Nick Zentena said:
If you get the 4x5 "kit" it includes a loading base. Doesn't hurt but not a big deal. The black inserts are part of the 2509N reels and if you bought them new they should have been included.

My reel comes used from Ebay, and of course, came without the black inserts (at this time, I ignored that such thing was needed), nor loading base.

I take it as another reminder of the old Caveat Emptor rule that should be applied to EvilBay

As I understand, theses inserts seem to help to hold in place the sheet (as explained above), but I had no problem with that in my previous processing trials. But my negs seems to suffer of "uneven development", as a friend tells to me. You can see a pinhole picture processed that way here
Sorry, this is a rough and full scan (heavy) , better seen reduced as Firefox do.

Maybe the black inserts improve developer agitation, too ?

razzledog · Apr 4, 2007

Old reliable?

I develop B/W negs in my old reliable 'Letterbox' FR cut film tank (c1939) that accepts twelve sheets at a time, then wash and hang them in No 4 Kodak hangers.....I've never have a problem with this method.

Nick Zentena · Apr 4, 2007

Raphael said:
My reel comes used from Ebay, and of course, came without the black inserts (at this time, I ignored that such thing was needed), nor loading base.

I take it as another reminder of the old Caveat Emptor rule that should be applied to EvilBay

As I understand, theses inserts seem to help to hold in place the sheet (as explained above), but I had no problem with that in my previous processing trials. But my negs seems to suffer of "uneven development", as a friend tells to me. You can see a pinhole picture processed that way here
Sorry, this is a rough and full scan (heavy) , better seen reduced as Firefox do.

Maybe the black inserts improve developer agitation, too ?

You may have the older 2509 not the newer 2509N. The black plates I don't think are needed to hold the film in. They supposedly help developer flow. Supposedly the older 2509 reels had problems when loaded with a full six sheets. How many sheets are you doing at once?

GeorgesGiralt · Apr 4, 2007

Hi !
Sorry to respond late, been busy ;-)
The special device is the loader (I got one, and sold it ) It is IMHO not needed. Practicee with 6 sheets in plain light and you'll get used to load the reel easilly in the dark.
The 2 black plastic retainers are not given with the old 2509. they only come with (I think) the 2509N newer reel. (I've got a lot of reels second hand, some have the plastic plug to retain the black insert some do not have it, so if you do not have them this could be normal.)
Now, when I re read my post I think it is not clear that I use the Jobo tank by had, as one would a Paterson 135 or 120 tank. I only use the 4x5 tanks on the Jobo processor for E6 color transparency processing.

Raphael · Apr 4, 2007

Thanks you for your answers, Nick and Georges,

Nick Zentena said:
You may have the older 2509 not the newer 2509N. The black plates I don't think are needed to hold the film in. They supposedly help developer flow. Supposedly the older 2509 reels had problems when loaded with a full six sheets. How many sheets are you doing at once?

I tried with four sheets of film at once. Just another question : do you place the film sheet with emulsion on the "core" side of reel, likes when we process a roll-film, or with the emulsion side to the outside ?

GeorgesGiralt said:
Hi !
Sorry to respond late, been busy ;-)
The special device is the loader (I got one, and sold it ) It is IMHO not needed. Practicee with 6 sheets in plain light and you'll get used to load the reel easilly in the dark.
The 2 black plastic retainers are not given with the old 2509. they only come with (I think) the 2509N newer reel. (I've got a lot of reels second hand, some have the plastic plug to retain the black insert some do not have it, so if you do not have them this could be normal.)
Now, when I re read my post I think it is not clear that I use the Jobo tank by had, as one would a Paterson 135 or 120 tank. I only use the 4x5 tanks on the Jobo processor for E6 color transparency processing.

OK, thanks for theses informations ! Your method became clear to me, when I reread your posts and see you use 1.45l of developper instead of 270ml with a rotating machine.

Best regards,

Raphael

Nick Zentena · Apr 4, 2007

http://www.jobo.com/jobo_service/us_analog/instructions/instructions_load_reels_4x5.htm

There you go -)

Raphael · Apr 11, 2007

Thanks you, Nick.

I don't understand why I didn't found this webpage when I googling few weeks ago...

BTW, I found now a better method for even developping : I use the fastest rotating speed, and 2m pre-soak. For the moment it is working for Europan 200 (aka Fortepan) with Rodinal (1+25).

Regards,

Raphael

aldevo · Apr 11, 2007

Being a relative new-comer to 4x5 tray development, I have to say it's not THAT bad.

In fact, I find it almost easy compared to the effort of having to lightproof my bathroom (I have a windowless bathroom, too) each time I need to load and develop film. That effort takes about an hour to do properly because of the air pressure differences against which I have to secure the blackout cloth.

The actual tray development is pretty easy as long as one takes care to only process a small number of sheets (perhaps 3) at a time until he/she has command of the process. For some films (Foma), I would never consider developing more than 3-4 sheets at a time because of its propensity to scratch.

I have never had an issue with uneven development with tray development. Not even when processnig slow speed film with correspondingly short development times.

New to 4x5: developing questions

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