New system question

elmartinj · Mar 30, 2020

Hello, so, I've been wanting to fulfill a lifelong dream and travel through all of Mexico's archaeological sites and photograph them using a medium format system. For this, I've been thinking about what to buy. So far, I know I'm going to need a normalesque lens and a wide angle. I've been looking at the RB67 system and I found a 50mm at a decent price (is this lens good, I've seen very mixed reviews).

I've also found a mamiya press universal and I've been thinking to buy into the system since the lenses are cheap enough to get them on ebay, this one comes with a 6x7 back and a 100mm lens.

I've also come across a Kowa system (I'm just not fond of 6x6 for this project in particular, since I'm very familiar with this because of my TLRs), and a Pentax 645 with a normal lens (not a big fan of electronics and also, more expensive lenses).

I've also read that the press system is nicer to shoot handheld than the RB67, is this any true? Would the lenses in this system be worth it? Shooting handheld is absolutely necessary since no tripods are allowed in many of these sites.

I'm not into a tight budget but also can't afford a Hassy system, sadly.

Any thoughts would be seriously considered and thanked!

Dan Fromm · Mar 30, 2020

Hmm. Architecture. Hmm. Think about what you'll need for that. Rise in particular.

On the other hand, why not 35 mm? Smaller, lighter, easier to travel with.

Finally, even though you're in MX and your government hasn't yet told people to stay home, are you sure you want to risk travel and exposure to strangers right now? Before the big clamp down but after airfares collapsed I contemplated a quick field trip to the Dominican Republic. I didn't do it because I didn't want to risk being stranded there.

Dan Daniel · Mar 30, 2020

Could you afford a Hasselblad 500 series with a 40mm or 50mm lens? From TLR use, you'll find the framing and such very familiar. >>>> oops, sorry, just noted your comment that this is out of your price range.

Another option would be a Fuji GSW690, maybe 670, with the 65mm lens. Wonderful lens, light camera. Eye level finder will be a great help shooting wide angle architecture without a tripod or any movements.

Donald Qualls · Mar 30, 2020

I bought an RB67 (ProS model) recently, and I'll tell you flat out: that's one heavy camera. Be sure you have a sturdy tripod and head, and get a strap if you plan to shoot hand held -- let your neck take the weight, and your hands will be steadier. The waist level finder helps here, too, just as it would with a TLR.

You'll most likely want/need to replace the seal foam in any ProS model roll holders you buy (I've read that ProSD backs don't depend on foam), but if you look around, you can get 6x4.5 backs as well as 6x7, so you don't need two cameras to shoot both formats. Fully mechanical, the only place you'd ever need a battery is if you find and use one of the CdS meter viewfinders. Double exposures are easy when desired, and with a ProS they're easy when not desired, too (no worse than having an old folding roll camera, just have to remember to advance film every time you cock the body -- and you won't forget that, because the mirror stays up).

I'm becoming a big fan of the revolving back -- lets me shoot verticals with little extra effort, and there are reminder frame lines in the viewfinder that appear in landscape and disappear in portrait. And when I have 35 mm loaded into a 220 back for panoramics, I can shoot that vertical with no extra work. And that's another nifty feature -- 220 backs are cheap, because there's no 220 film any more, and it's easy to load 35 mm into them. Then you have 90mm, 65mm, and 50mm lenses that virtually mimic the field and aspect ratio of the Xpan (you get 24x67 if you crop off the sprocket holes, as opposed to 24x72 in Xpan), without electronics to fail, and without the multi-thousand dollar price tag.

Bottom line, you can get a top quality medium format camera system, plus a panoramic capability, for the price of a top quality TLR. It just weighs as much as all the cameras it replaces, taken together... .

Paul Howell · Mar 30, 2020

I have both Kowa and Mamiya Universal, of the 2 the Kowa is lighter, the lens are very good, good range from fish eye to moderate tele, a 500. Problem is that is's 6X6, don't know anyone in Mexico how works on them, so as TLR shooter you know about, what a 1/3 (my math may be wrong could be less) when cropped to a 8X10. As an alternative I would consider a 6X4.5 Mamiya. all mechanical.

The Universal is a heavy beast, all pro level, not much to go wrong, the 6X7 negative enlarges to a 8X10. The lens are a tad slower than the Kowa, a 65 is 6.3. Over the years I've found the lens to be very sharp. The press was designed to shoot hand held, press camera, was a favorite of wedding and event photographers,. As with the Kowa 66 each lens has it's own leaf shutter that syncs at any shutter speed. Shooting slow film like Tmax 100 or Ektar 100 for color you can print really large. Down side is that it is a heavy beast and takes up a fair mount of room, You need to make sure you have the view finder for the wide lens. And make sure you buy lens that are designed for the Press and Universal, some lens were made for the polaroid version of the camera are hard to use on a Press. Last is it a treasure hunt to find filters for the wide angles lens.

If I had to choose between them I would use the Universal, the 6X7 negative in my mind wins.

Alternatives, so many, still I would consider a Mamiya twin lens reflex, I assume that your TLR are fixed lens, 330 F with normal wide and short tele, a heavy camera, but as know the a TLR is held very manageable, lens as good as any, built in bellows in case you need to shoot macro.

I have never shot with a RB 6X7, just seem more of a studio camera than a field camera.

Last if your thinking about a body and one lens, then a 6X9 Crown or Speed with roll back. Bodies are made of wood very light, lens are good, the rangefinder can be kept in alignment.

abruzzi · Mar 30, 2020

I've never used an RB67 or RZ67, but I seriously considered one recently. In the end the size was what put me off. I the sites are all places where you can drive, the weight might not be that limiting, but carrying a camera, back, and two or three lenses on your shoulder for 8 hours can be challenging. I recently got back from a trip to Guanajuato and San Miguel de Allende, and before I left, I was back and forth between my Bronica ETRSi (6x4.5) and my Bronica GS-1 (6x7). I ended up with the ETRSi and my shoulder is glad I did. Even that camera was large and bulky compared to bringing a 35mm system like my Nikon F2.

Donald Qualls · Mar 30, 2020

Paul Howell said:
Last if your thinking about a body and one lens, then a 6X9 Crown or Speed with roll back. Bodies are made of wood very light, lens are good, the rangefinder can be kept in alignment.

Speeds/Crowns of any size from the Pacemaker or post-War period are easy to make lens boards for (I've cut them from Masonite and made the hole with a hole saw), so you don't need to be limited to one lens on one of these. A 65, the 105 normal, and a 150 or 180 would work well, though you'd have to recalibrate the RF with a ground glass each time you switch lenses, or focus on the ground glass for two of the three. Plenty of bellows to accommodate portraits with the 180, or to shoot macro with the 65.

jgboothe · Mar 30, 2020

This is a tricky one because of the no-tripod stipulation and it sounds like you want interchangeable lenses.

On the larger formats you may struggle to get the depth of field you want at normal and longer focal lengths when hand-holding, because you are likely to have to use wider apertures. SLRs are not ideal either because the vibration will force you to use higher shutter speeds, resulting in the same problem. It depends on your aesthetic, of course. If you like/can deal with shallow depth of field and focus being a bit off some of the time then this might be ok.

I agree that the option for eye-level viewing is very likely to be an advantage, but using a prism with an RB will make an already heavy camera even heavier. I wouldn't want to be holding one of those to my eye for long periods in hot conditions.

The Mamiya 7 or Bronica 645 RF would in theory be good options because: light, interchangeable lenses, low vibration, eye-level viewing, but then you probably already know that and they are out of your budget. The Fuji fixed-lens rangefinders, including the 645 models are worth thinking about, but they don't give you interchangeable lenses.

The older Fuji G690 series with interchangeable lenses might be worth looking at. Not so easy to get hold of, and fairly heavy, but quite a bit lighter and easier to hand-hold than an RB with prism.

The Mamiya Press is probably quite a good compromise. Should be fairly easy to hand-hold. No shutter vibration. Eye-level viewing. Interchangeable lenses. Fairly cheap. From what I understand, the lenses are pretty close to the RB lenses - maybe better at the wide angles. You would also have the option to shoot square or 6x4.5. The press holders are renowned for good film flatness - important if you're forced to use wider apertures.

Another option might be to take a Fuji fixed-lens rangefinder for your most-used focal length and use 35mm to cover the others.

Possibly more important than the choice of model is getting a copy without any issues and which is likely to be reliable. You need to leave yourself a lot of time (and film) for testing and getting to know the kit before you do your trip. You'd have to check the focus carefully on any rangefinder, for example.

Myself, I'd probably do it with my Mamiya M645 - not because it's ideal for the job, but it's the kit I already have. It is reliable, not too heavy, has the option of eye-level or waist-level viewing, and I could get the focal lengths I want without too much expense.

Pieter12 · Mar 30, 2020

Rollei SL66. Has front tilt.

cjbecker · Mar 30, 2020

Donald Qualls said:
Speeds/Crowns of any size from the Pacemaker or post-War period are easy to make lens boards for (I've cut them from Masonite and made the hole with a hole saw), so you don't need to be limited to one lens on one of these. A 65, the 105 normal, and a 150 or 180 would work well, though you'd have to recalibrate the RF with a ground glass each time you switch lenses, or focus on the ground glass for two of the three. Plenty of bellows to accommodate portraits with the 180, or to shoot macro with the 65.

I second this idea, they are well built cameras, might not be the lightest, but definitely one of the strongest, easy to pack with lens attached. Calibrate the rangefinder for the most used lens, and focus with the gg for the other two. (I would have infinity marks on the bed for all the lenses) its pretty easy to focus with the ground glass then shoot with the wire finder.

It will give you a straight forward camera to use, but this will also give you some movements when needed.

Or just take the ultimate travel camera, the TLR.

Sirius Glass · Mar 30, 2020

Buying Hasselblads only means waiting longer between buying lenses.
Mamiya Cxx or Cxxx are ideal for close ups with their built in bellows and interchangeable lenses are a big plus. Lack of swapping film mid roll, not so much.

RalphLambrecht · Mar 31, 2020

Dan Fromm said:
Hmm. Architecture. Hmm. Think about what you'll need for that. Rise in particular.

On the other hand, why not 35 mm? Smaller, lighter, easier to travel with.

Finally, even though you're in MX and your government hasn't yet told people to stay home, are you sure you want to risk travel and exposure to strangers right now? Before the big clamp down but after airfares collapsed I contemplated a quick field trip to the Dominican Republic. I didn't do it because I didn't want to risk being stranded there.

Yes, consider a good 35mm system; much easier on you and still great quality images!

Kodachromeguy · Mar 31, 2020

Of you want to photograph architecture and archaeology, a shift lens can be very handy. Three options:
1 Mamiya 75mm for the RB. Big, heavy, expensive.
2 Mamiya 50mm for the 645
3 Press type med. format camera like the Horseman VHR. Much cheaper but a bit bulky and slow to operate.

I think a real medium format bargain is the Mamiya TLR system. Great optics!

johnha · Mar 31, 2020

Kodachromeguy said:
Of you want to photograph architecture and archaeology, a shift lens can be very handy. Three options:
1 Mamiya 75mm for the RB. Big, heavy, expensive.
2 Mamiya 50mm for the 645
3 Press type med. format camera like the Horseman VHR. Much cheaper but a bit bulky and slow to operate.

4 Pentax 6x7 with the 75mm shift lens.

I shoot Mamiya 645 and P6x7. I've heard very good reviews of the M645 & 50mm shift for handheld working for architecture (although I haven't tried it). I have the P6x7 and 75mm shift but haven't had the chance to use them together much (I'm happy hand holding the camera with most other shorter lenses).

Some may suggest that 645 might be a bit small if you're looking to use medium format, but in the field, portability and ease of use are very helpful. I'd probably use my P6x7 and 75mm shift as it's gear I have, like most shift lenses though, you lose open aperture metering.

I've looked at a Fuji 6x9 rangefinder (seemed almost as big & heavy as the P6x7) and don't have experience of the Mamiya Press (looks interesting but awkward to use).

beemermark · Mar 31, 2020

Forget the Mamiya RB if you can't use a tripod. I like 6x6 and a Rolleiflex TLR is so small and light I couldn't recommend it highly enough. But you usually end up cropping a 6x6 to 645 so why not go with a 645 camera. I've had both the Bronica and Mamiya 645 systems and much prefer the Mamiya "newer" 645 like the Super or Pro. But that more to do with ergonomics, both systems have a great lenses. They're light, relatively cheap, and every much as good as a Hassie (I've owned them also. Another great option is the Pentax 67. I had one eons ago (one of the original versions) and it was fantastic. A bit on the heavy side but still very hand hold-able.

beemermark · Mar 31, 2020

One more thing to think about, no matter what size negative you choose (645, 67, 6x9) they will all produce the same results when made into a huge final print.

narsuitus · Mar 31, 2020

elmartinj said:
Any thoughts would be seriously considered and thanked!

I currently use two medium format systems.

Two RB67 SLR bodies with wide, normal, and telephoto lenses.

Two Mamiya rangefinder bodies with a wide lens on a 6x9cm body and a normal lens on a 6x7cm body.

For a photographic trip through the archaeological sites of of Mexico, I prefer carrying the two Mamiya rangefinders.

Medium Format Kits by Narsuitus, on Flickr

Kodachromeguy · Mar 31, 2020

narsuitus said:
.

For a photographic trip through the archaeological sites of of Mexico, I prefer carrying the two Mamiya rangefinders.

Medium Format Kits by Narsuitus, on Flickr

20+ years sgo, I took an archaeology your with my family and 2 Rolleiflexes through Honduras, Guatemala, and Chiapas. Now you inspired me to find the negatives and add them to the need-to-scan pile.

jim10219 · Mar 31, 2020

I'm going to have to recommend a Graflex Speed Graphic or Busch Pressman. With architecture, especially large buildings that you can't easily back away far enough from, I find front rise to be a must-have feature. The down side is focusing, as the range finder can only be calibrated to one lens at a time, and you don't want to have to recalibrate it every time you switch lenses. But, you can plan out your shots ahead of time and calibrate it to the lens that you'll use the most. So if one day, the weather is great and you want to capture the whole structures, go with the wide angle. And if the next, the weather isn't so amazing, you might want to switch to a longer lens to capture more detail shots, and you can recalibrate the lens in the hotel (you just need a tape measure, some tiny screwdrivers, and something in the far off distance to focus on).

The RB67/RZ67 are nice systems. But as others said, they're heavy. Shooting hand held over a long period of time will be a pain. However, if you go that route, use the waist level viewfinder, and get a comfy strap that hangs the camera at exactly the spot you want to hold it to focus and shoot from. Then you're not wearing your arms out holding the camera up all day. Same goes with the Mamiya TLR's. They're equally good systems, and a bit smaller and lighter than the RB/RZ, though you can't switch out film mid-roll (if you ever actually need to). The Mamiya lenses are great. I had a Hasselblad 500c and sold it, largely because the images I got from my RB67 and C220 where just as good. However, the Hasselblad is a lot lighter and smaller, and in this case, that would come in handy. None of them offer front rise though, which is why if I were doing what you're doing, I wouldn't pick any of them, and go with a folding press camera.

Though if money were no object, I'd probably go with a folding press camera and a Hasselblad. That way you have one for wide angle, whole structure shots where you can utilize front rise, and one for closer detailed shots with a longer lens that doesn't weigh a ton. You wouldn't even have to switch lenses.

TheMissingLink · Mar 31, 2020

Another system which works for me, architectural, landsape etc ..

horseman vh(-r) 6x9. large negatives, perfect quality lenses, the "R" has also a coupled rangefinder, a revolving back plus the option of using a groundglass. front and back movements, the ability to use a simple lensboard with other (uncoupled) lenses ... and for all of these possibilites not so heavy.
I got mine with three lenses afair for less than 400 Euro.

cowanw · Mar 31, 2020

My solution was a Hartblei Super rotator on a 645 camera
http://www.hartbleilens.com/

Neil Grant · Mar 31, 2020

elmartinj said:
Hello, so, I've been wanting to fulfill a lifelong dream and travel through all of Mexico's archaeological sites and photograph them using a medium format system. For this, I've been thinking about what to buy. So far, I know I'm going to need a normalesque lens and a wide angle. I've been looking at the RB67 system and I found a 50mm at a decent price (is this lens good, I've seen very mixed reviews.
Any thoughts would be seriously considered and thanked!

..I don't think the RB 67 is best suited given your interest in archeological sites. I toured MX a few years ago and got a lot of use out of 35mm PC and 28mm PC for Nikon. For MF Mamiya 645 and 50mm PC would be a sort of equivalent. maybe get and 80mm and 150mm as well.
FYI: the RB 67 isn't too difficult to hand hold with a grip and nothing longer than 127mm. The mirror action is well damped - it's a real 'gentle giant' of a camera. The 50mm lens shows some sample-to-sample variation. The multicoated C version can be pretty sharp and contrasty - but there's always some distortion and lateral colour. It's just not what I'd take to MX.

Vaughn · Mar 31, 2020

Beyond TLR, my main MF experiences have been with a 6x7 rollback on 4x5, a Press Universal, and a Fuji 6x7. The easiest to handhold and use was the Fuji...sweet camera. I had fun with the Press Universal, but I have gotten so use to single focal length lens systems, that I keep going back to them, especially for traveling.

Great project! You might find that as you progress with the project, the project and your camera needs will evolve, have fun!

Below is a 6x8 contact print (carbon transfer) from the Mamiya Press camera (the 'New' Yosemite Fire Fall many years ago). I have forgotten what lens...150mm at least.

Sirius Glass · Mar 31, 2020

Kodachromeguy said:
Of you want to photograph architecture and archaeology, a shift lens can be very handy. Three options:
1 Mamiya 75mm for the RB. Big, heavy, expensive.
2 Mamiya 50mm for the 645
3 Press type med. format camera like the Horseman VHR. Much cheaper but a bit bulky and slow to operate.

I think a real medium format bargain is the Mamiya TLR system. Great optics!

Hasselblad FlexBody
Hasseblad ArcBody

Paul Howell · Mar 31, 2020

Horseman and Lindof have come down in price, issue is need lens that are matched to the cames, so if you go that direction buy a body with matched lens.

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