New Study of Pyro Staining Developers

sanking · Jun 27, 2006

In a thread by another name I made the following announcment this evening on the LF forum.

"There is, however, still a need for a very thorough and comprehensive study on pyro staining developers versus non-staining developers, and within the pyro category, a comparison of the various formulae. I have long wanted to do such a study, but constraints of the profession did not afford me the time. However, having recently retired from academia I now have the time and inclination to pursue this study, and now is as good a time as any to announce that intention. I plan to invite at least one more person, and perhaps two or three, to collaborate with me on this study, which will be, to the best of my ability to make it so, sound in its methodology, comprehensive, and transparent."

I am pleased to announce that Kirk Keyes has agreed to collaborate with me on this study. Kirk will bring important strengths and talents to this study and I look forward to working with him on the project.

Kirk and I have no agenda. The testing methods, and data from our testing, will be transparent and will drive all conclusions.

Sandy King

magic823 · Jun 27, 2006

Thanks for doing this Sandy. I eagarly await your results.

Steve

Buster6X6 · Jun 27, 2006

magic823 said:
Thanks for doing this Sandy. I eagarly await your results.

Steve

I second that, thanks Sandy I can't wait.

Greg

JBrunner · Jun 27, 2006

Really cool. This is great news.

sanking · Jun 28, 2006

Thanks for your support. It is greatly appreciated.

Sandy

vet173 · Jun 28, 2006

Can't thank you enough Sandy for all that you have done already.

MenacingTourist · Jun 28, 2006

This makes me wonder how many different Pyro or staining developers there are and which of them will you be testing? Sounds like a cool project.

You retired guys have all the fun

colrehogan · Jun 28, 2006

I'm looking forward to seeing the results too.

Tom Hoskinson · Jun 28, 2006

A worthy project, Sandy and Kirk! Looking forward to it.

srs5694 · Jun 28, 2006

What exactly are you studying -- in other words, what variables are you examining? (Particularly dependent variables.)

Jim Noel · Jun 28, 2006

SInce I currently have five different staining developers ready for use in the darkroom, I am looking forward to the results of this study. I am most interested in which ones yeild the best results for both gelatin silver and some of the alt processes. Highlight separation is also a major concern for me.

Thanks Sandy for undertaking this task. I know there will be detractors regardless of the outcomes, but I will not be one of them. I value your judgements.

By the way, good luck with the eye. I lost 50% of the vision field in my dominant eye a few years ago and certainly am aware of the mental anguish which those of us in photography suffer when such a thing happens.

Jim

sanking · Jun 28, 2006

srs5694 said:
What exactly are you studying -- in other words, what variables are you examining? (Particularly dependent variables.)

We will be studying the things that define image quality: grain, sharpness, how tonal values are rendered, how the developer responds to backlighted scenes, type of shouldering if appropriate, what impact the color of the stain has on specific processes, suitiability for dual purpose negatives, etc.

The major questions I would lik to answer are.

1. Are there advantages to staining developers that can be demonstrated? And if so, what are they?

and

2. What differnces exist among the various stining formulae, and how can these differences be exploited?

Sandy

sanking · Jun 28, 2006

Jim Noel said:
Thanks Sandy for undertaking this task. I know there will be detractors regardless of the outcomes, but I will not be one of them. I value your judgements.

Jim

I am sure there will be detractors. However, if the testing procedures used are consistent, repeatable and transparent then the results should be easily duplicated.

That would leave only the conclusions to quarrel about.

Sandy

df cardwell · Jun 28, 2006

Sandy

Sounds like fun.

Is the context going to be LF work exclusively, or consider 35 / 120 film as well ( for example, lower density & lower CI negs ) ?

sanking · Jun 28, 2006

df cardwell said:
Sandy

Sounds like fun.

Is the context going to be LF work exclusively, or consider 35 / 120 film as well ( for example, lower density & lower CI negs ) ?

I am leaning toward doing most of the testing with medium format film and equipment rather than sheet film because I want to use minimal development procedures for all of the tests and I find this easier to do with roll film in tanks than with sheet film. Also, I anticipate that a fair amout of enlargment will be necessary to actually see differences in grain and sharpness so might as well start with a smaller negative as a larg one.

As for density and CI, we will develop the film as appropriate for different processes.

Sandy

Ole · Jun 28, 2006

If I may make a suggestion, try the claimed effect of Hans Windisch' Compensating Pyrocatehin developer - for contrast control in extreme situations. Does any other developer come close (including the "modernised version"?

Tom Hoskinson · Jun 28, 2006

Marilyn Levy's POTA?

craigclu · Jun 28, 2006

I was pondering the amount of data and potential comment/anecdotal material that might possibly accompany it.... I predict this could literally turn into a book when fully compiled. I have been finding differences in many Pyro-based developers regarding the agitation scheme employed Some, such as Prescysol, seem to come alive with limited agitation, others seem to better control highlights when using more limited agitation scenarios, too. This sounds like a mammoth undertaking and I applaud your energy in embarking on this!

sanking · Jun 28, 2006

craigclu said:
I was pondering the amount of data and potential comment/anecdotal material that might possibly accompany it.... I predict this could literally turn into a book when fully compiled. I have been finding differences in many Pyro-based developers regarding the agitation scheme employed Some, such as Prescysol, seem to come alive with limited agitation, others seem to better control highlights when using more limited agitation scenarios, too. This sounds like a mammoth undertaking and I applaud your energy in embarking on this!

Craig,

I would like to do a thorough and comprhensive article but with a fairly limited focus. Some topics, such as agitation schemes, are very important but I would tend to want to save this for a follow-up article. Same would be true of scanning, which is also a very important issue for me. So initiallg I want to limit the scope to something that we can manage in a 2-3 month period, and perhaps approach the other issues later. Or maybe someone else will jump in and deal with the other issues.

Sandy

sanking · Jun 28, 2006

BTW, I just want to mention that Bud at Photographer's Formulary has offered to provide me at no cost (and no strings attached) any chemicals that might be needed for the Pyro study. Thanks, Bud, very much appreciated.

Sandy

Ted Harris · Jun 28, 2006

As discussed in the LF FOrum Post Sandy mentioned, "View Camera" Magazine will be hosting a roundtable discussion in which Sandy, John Wimberley, Gordon Hutchngs and Jay DeFehr will all discuss their formulas and staining developers in general. Each participant will present specific information on their formula and respond to a set of questions.

I will "moderate" the discussion without editorial comments or content editing other than clarification, all of which will be discussed with the original writer in advance.

This should iluminate the continuing discussions on the topic. Thans Sandy, John, Gordon and Jay for participating.

Steve Sherman · Jun 28, 2006

Incredible undertaking Sandy, keep us posted, especially if we can be of some service

Jim Fitzgerald · Jun 28, 2006

Sandy, I can't wait to see the results! Your Pyrocat HD is great. All of the info that I have picked up from the various forums has been very usefull. If I see an article written by Sandy King you know I'm going to read it. Your formulas have opened the door to more creativity for me and I thank you for it.

Stay Focused!

Jim

Jordan · Jun 30, 2006

This sounds like a very interesting project. At the risk of being flamed out of this board, do you plan to investigate the suitability of the resulting negatives for scanning? Some have claimed that staining developers produce negs that are easier or smoother-scanning than non-staining developers.

JBrunner · Jun 30, 2006

Jordan said:
This sounds like a very interesting project. At the risk of being flamed out of this board, do you plan to investigate the suitability of the resulting negatives for scanning? Some have claimed that staining developers produce negs that are easier or smoother-scanning than non-staining developers.

Jordan,

I think that would be a very good thread topic in the grey area subforum. I would love to see a current discussion on that.

New Study of Pyro Staining Developers

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Ole

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New Study of Pyro Staining Developers

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