New shutter or new lens

Don Wallace · Jun 4, 2008

I have an older 90mm Super Angulon in a Compur shutter. For some time, the 1/15 speed has not worked and the local repair shop said they could not get it working. Over the weekend, the shutter stopped working altogether. Also, the lens is quite worn, with scrapes and some good dings (not on the glass). I like 90mm SA's (although f/5.6 would be nice) but here is the dilemma. They are not very expensive on ebay. I saw one very nice and more recent one, in a Copal, go for only $400. Do I:

1) possibly throw good money away getting an older Compur fixed only to have it die again?

2) buy a new Copal to fit, approx. $250? (I am also assuming it is a simple screw-in swap)

3) just buy a more recent one in a Copal?

Has anyone been through this? I am open to suggestions. :confused:

Don Dudenbostel · Jun 4, 2008

I just had Schneider in California replace the Copal 0 on my 121 SA. I had an accident a few years ago and the shutter was damaged beyond repair. I sent the lens in and had a new shutter put on with a new custom F scale and the lens completely disassembled. cleaned and realigned for just over $400. It's basically a new lens now and as good as it was the day I bought it in 1973. If you like the performance of the sample you have and it's not in a Compur 00 then why not spend the money and keep one that you know works properly. Save the extra money and buy some film or something else you want. Cosmetics don't make better images.

Dan Fromm · Jun 4, 2008

Don, I believe that the 90/6.8 Angulon goes in a #0 shutter. I don't know if he has the goods, but Tim Sharkey (see http://lensn2shutter.com/shutters.html ) claims he has the shutter(s) you want, used and overhauled at reasonable prices. If you're patient, you should be able to find a lens in a clean Copal #0 on eBay for considerably less. I have a nice #0 Copal Press, which would have done for you, that came with a 105 Comparon and an unexpected 2x3 Pacemaker Graphic focusing panel for under $40.

Not to impugn your local repairman, but Carol Miller or Paul Ebel or skgrimes might be able to revive your dead shutter.

Budget for having whatever shutter you buy scaled for y'r lens.

FWIW, I replaced a 65/6.8 Wolly (different design than the Angulon, functionally equivalent to it) with a 65/8 Ilex (strongly resembles an SA) and am much happier with the Ilex than I was with the Wolly. Thinking of which, you might look for a 90/6.8 Wolly in Rapax.

Deckled Edge · Jun 4, 2008

Don,
You can't tell from any of my prints which of my lenses were dinged and scraped. If the glass is good and you like your SA, then have the Compur replaced. Nearly everyone agrees that the Compur is superior to the Copal, and once repaired they're *nearly* bomb-proof. I agree with a repeat overhaul by known overhaulers. Carol just spruced up two of mine to good-as-new condition, but her wait list is long.

Ole · Jun 4, 2008

Dan Fromm said:
Don, I believe that the 90/6.8 Angulon goes in a #0 shutter. ...

But this is a Super Angulon - and the 90/8 SA is either in a #00, in a #0, or a #0+1.

If it's in a 00, it is difficult to get it remounted in a 0. The others should be fairly standard. So if it's the tiny little #00 shutter, you have a good excuse for buying a new(er) lens!

Dan Fromm · Jun 4, 2008

Thanks, Ole, time to have my vision checked.

jimgalli · Jun 4, 2008

Don't forget that if you replace it you can list the one that needs repair and get some of the $$ back. Just be very honest in the description. The tinker and get it running crowd slobbers all over themselves paying more than this stuff is worth. Get the newer one in the Copal.

Ian Grant · Jun 5, 2008

You can buy a good second-hand Super Angulon for not much more than the price of a new hutter. Alertanively check which shutter it is and put a wanted ad here in the classifieds. Also look out for a lens with separation/fungus with a good shutter (that's the right size).

Or as Jim says sell the lens cells and broken shutter, someone would buy them.

Ian

Don Wallace · Jun 5, 2008

Deckled Edge said:
Don,
You can't tell from any of my prints which of my lenses were dinged and scraped. If the glass is good and you like your SA, then have the Compur replaced. Nearly everyone agrees that the Compur is superior to the Copal, and once repaired they're *nearly* bomb-proof. I agree with a repeat overhaul by known overhaulers. Carol just spruced up two of mine to good-as-new condition, but her wait list is long.

You are quite right about the relationship between cosmetics and function (i.e., there isn't one). My only concern was that I would be spending more money on fixing an older lens when a newer one might be cheaper. Why is the Compur considered superior to the Copal?

Ian Grant · Jun 5, 2008

The Compur's are far more reliable. I have numerous and all are accurate even the very early dial set models. In contrast the modern Copals get lazy particularly the slow speeds if not used.

Ian

r-brian · Jun 5, 2008

I had the SA 90 f8 in the little 00 compur and went through similar thinking to replace the shutter. Eventhough my shutter worked perfectly, I just got tired of having to use a locking cable release to focus. I ended up very carefully bidding on Ebay and won a like-new 90mm f6.8 Caltar II-N MC (aka Rodenstock) and then sold the SA 90. Price difference ended up being $100.

void · Jun 6, 2008

When SA 90mm f/8 has switched from Compur 00 to Compur 0?

Don12x20 · Jun 6, 2008

Don Wallace said:
I have an older 90mm Super Angulon in a Compur shutter. .... Also, the lens is quite worn, with scrapes and some good dings (not on the glass).

1) possibly throw good money away getting an older Compur fixed only to have it die again?

2) buy a new Copal to fit, approx. $250? (I am also assuming it is a simple screw-in swap)

3) just buy a more recent one in a Copal?

Has anyone been through this? I am open to suggestions. :confused:

0-size shutters have known issues with alignment. Stress on the elements, evidenced by the dings, can cause alignment to be off-axis, either through compression of the 0 shutter itself, or through slight twisting of the aluminum element wrapper at the point where the threads begin (the threads that screw the element(lenses) into the shutter body).

My experience with a Grandagon 90mm with copal 0 -- I accidently put a slight ding in the front element tube after the lens/lenseboard dropped off the front of a arca-swiss camera tipped down to make an image of a stream. It fell into a patch of small gravel/sand. Didn't appear damaged, other than a tiny ding, and the shutter worked fine. Since this was a borrowed lens , I returned it to Rodenstock (Germany) for a check as well as to restore it. I was surprised when word came back that the shutter as well as the aluminum (anodized black) shell around the front element would have to be replaced as it had bent slightly at the threads.

So, in my experience, with prices being so low, you might be better off buying a great replacement instead of trying to get a remount. Since you have dings on the lens, simply replacing the shutter may not be enough. and if you decide to replace with copal 0, get a quality shop like SK Grimes to do the remount - sure you could simply screw it into the new copal if threads match but you may need shims, and you should have it tested to ensure its aligned along the axis.

YMMV

Frank Szabo · Jun 6, 2008

Don Wallace said:
I have an older 90mm Super Angulon in a Compur shutter. For some time, the 1/15 speed has not worked and the local repair shop said they could not get it working. Over the weekend, the shutter stopped working altogether. Also, the lens is quite worn, with scrapes and some good dings (not on the glass). I like 90mm SA's (although f/5.6 would be nice) but here is the dilemma. They are not very expensive on ebay. I saw one very nice and more recent one, in a Copal, go for only $400. Do I:

1) possibly throw good money away getting an older Compur fixed only to have it die again?

2) buy a new Copal to fit, approx. $250? (I am also assuming it is a simple screw-in swap)

3) just buy a more recent one in a Copal?

Has anyone been through this? I am open to suggestions. :confused:

Stuff like this ruffled my feathers some years ago. I ended up getting out of the camera/photo/insanity business some years ago and when I was able started replacing the equipment I had sold earlier and thought it through this time rather than just letting it happen and ending up with a hodgepodge of parts.

Lenses in shutter are considerably more expensive that the barrel-mount variety and taking that into account, my view cameras are two Sinars; one, an old, beat up "F" model 4X5 to carry around outside (they are rather light, but the base tilts suck) and an older "P" model in great shape that never goes outside.

The result?
a) All of my lenses are mounted on the same boards. Interchangeability.

b) I have one Sinar Copal shutter that fits both cameras and allows the use of the barrel lenses - they have the aperture, the camera has the shutter.

c) I recently bought a 2D Kodak for another project I won't have time to work on and will make a front-mount box similar to a Packard mount (which I also have) to make this large shutter interchangeable between the three cameras (I can't shoot more than one at a time anyway).

Consider the one-time cost in adapting this big shutter to your gear and never worrying about the individual shutters again.

Don Wallace · Jul 29, 2008

A followup. I took a chance on it being repairable and sent it to Paul Ebel. He repaired it, including replacing the speed cam, and did a CLA. It has never worked this well. He charged just under $100, including shipping, and the turnaround was very good. He did a major repair job on my 14 inch Commercial Ektar a few years ago and it was equally brilliant. I highly recommend this guy.

New shutter or new lens

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