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Larry Bullis · Nov 29, 2008

Photo Engineer said:
Yes, but I don't want to repeat what others have done. I want to study that work, find the faults and do them one better! That is my strategy.

Thanks for the reference.

PE

Ron,

I'd love to see you do that one better!

Of course, the problem with Harvey's 777 is that no one seems to know what it is. It is NOT Germaine's developer, although popular mythology mis-attributes it as such. So, I guess it would have to be dis-assembled (as I suspect that Bud Wilson must have done, since PF sells it). That is, even to know what one's goals might be.

I confess, I've never used it, just been fascinated with the lore. I've been reluctant to try it because I'm afraid I'd get hooked. Since I make my own developers from scratch, I'd hate to become dependent upon somebody's kit.

PHOTOTONE · Nov 29, 2008

Photo Engineer said:
Yes, that is correct to some extent. Do they use lead free solder in China?

OTOH, Lead doping is used in TV screens of several types, and is still used in paints in many parts of the world. Red Lead is famous world round AAMOF.

So, if your product is made in North Americal or Europe or to their standards it is probably lead free. If it is not, the coin is in the air. Your call. Oh, but then how many products are made to "our" standards. Remember that Kodak quit all production of film products in China and stopped all technology transfer.

Mining for heavy metals often has other toxic metal byproducts, lead being one of them.

PE

Several years ago the major camera makers, Japanese companies such as Nikon, Canon, Fuji, etc., had to redesign their products to be lead free. I think it doesn't matter where the electronic products are made, rather to sell on world markets they have to be lead free. But, my opinion, lead solder is just about harmless, it is lead oxides that are the health risk, not lead metal.
I have worked with lead (solder, printers type) most of my life, and suffered no ill effects...because it is metal, not oxides. The normal "melting" of lead to solder is just that, melting, not boiling. There is a huge gap between where lead melts, and where it boils and gives off oxides. In soldering, one never gets close to that temperature.

Photo Engineer · Nov 29, 2008

The flux in all solders is there enhance the soldering process by covering the joint with an oxygen barrier and a material that converts metal salts to metal, thereby forming a strong bonding surface of pure metal. However, during the soldering process, lead salt vapors can form and we are well advised to avoid inhalation of the "steam" that is seen to arise from the surface of a solder joint in progress. At the same time, we see lead oxides forming on older boards as they tarnish. In any event.... I'm not sure. See below.

However, to sell on the open market, Chinese products must be free of contaminants or other things forbidden in the west. Anyone have a pet poisoned by melamine in pet foods? Anyone eat Chinese chocolate? Are pesticides fully removed from imported friuits and vegetables? IDK, and I doubt if anyone can be sure nowdays. I'm merely making a point that the level of Cd in photoproducts was far lower than most other toxic substances around, but it was an easy target for environmentalists because it was a known item.

To get back to the lead... Last year there was an article about lead leaching from landfills that contain discarded old electronic products which did contain lead. And that is where it is doing the most damage. The leach water from landfills is putting lead and mercury into our biosphere far faster and to a greater extent than any photo product ever did. I would estimate that a single circuit board from a decade old PC contained more lead than a truckload of photo paper did of Cd.

PE

JBrunner · Nov 29, 2008

Arsenic, antimony, beryllium, cadmium, copper, lead, nickel and zinc are all present in cell phones in more or less tiny amounts. The problem is Americans improperly dispose of over a 100 million of them a year. All of a sudden tiny isn't so small.

Larry Bullis · Nov 30, 2008

The problem is heavily involved in the supposed need to simplify. In a college where I taught, on Saturday, when I was a hundred miles away, someone came out of the lab and uttered the fateful words: "Chemical spill". The campus was soon in total confusion. The hazmat folks showed up in their suits.

The more appropriate thing for that person to have said (and believe me, my students get this story now with the rationale) was "has anybody seen the mop?"

About a half gallon of fixer was spilled on the floor.

I really don't think that the problem is "the environmentalists" so much -- its just plain ignorance. And that is admittedly on the part of the environmentalists -- but on theirs no more than of on just about everyone else as well.

It is illegal for me to transport used fixer in any quantity in my car, because I don't have a hazmat license. C'mon. Let's get real.

Frank Szabo · Nov 30, 2008

JBrunner said:
Arsenic, antimony, beryllium, cadmium, copper, lead, nickel and zinc are all present in cell phones in more or less tiny amounts. The problem is Americans improperly dispose of over a 100 million of them a year. All of a sudden tiny isn't so small.

Not that anyone here has a ton of it but ... the chemical that gives an emerald its green color is beryl.

David A. Goldfarb · Dec 5, 2008

Back to amidol, here's what The Scientific American Cyclopedia of Formulas, ed. Hopkins, 1928 edition, p. 677 has to say under, "Amidol. To Keep--"

Papazolgou recommends 80% sugar syrup, made by taking 8 oz. white sugar, about 2 oz. water, boiling, and making up to 10 oz. with water. His formula for developer is: Sodium sulphite, 270 gr.; amidol, 70 gr.; sodium bisulphite lye, 6 oz.; sugar, 80% syrup, 6 oz.; rectified spirit, 4 oz.; water to 20 oz. This will have some of the advantages of the "thickened" developer.

I presume "gr" is grains rather than grams. How does that sound? We don't seem to be doing this today.

Photo Engineer · Dec 5, 2008

Sugars provide oxygen barriers and scavenge oxygen. The method is different than Sulfite, but it works. Many sugars have been used. I'm working on the Amidol problem and have made some significant advances! It is amazing what can be done yet.

PE

acroell · Dec 7, 2008

Frank Szabo said:
Not that anyone here has a ton of it but ... the chemical that gives an emerald its green color is beryl.

Totally off topic, sorry, but: The base mineral of an emerald is beryl, which is a beryllium silicate. The green color actually comes from traces of Chromium. Other Beryls are Aquamarin or Morganite (Red). Same mineral, same beryllium content, just different trace elements for color.

David A. Goldfarb · Dec 15, 2008

David A. Goldfarb said:
A monobath for silver diffusion transfer from Haist's Monobath Manual (136-37) from BP 987,764 (1965), assigned to Polaroid for use with "a fine grain, silver iodobromide film, said to be substantially similar to Kodak Panatomic-X Film but with an emulsion thickness of about 0.002 inch"--

Water--180 cc
Sodium carboxymethyl cellulose (high viscosity)--6 g
Sodium hydroxide--9 g
Sodium thiosulfate (penta)--10.8 g
Amidol--7.2 g
Ascorbic acid--1.8 g
Sodium sulfite--6.5 g

Processing time of the neg in contact with the image-receiving sheet about 10 sec.

Sound familiar?

Out of curiosity, I tried this formula minus the sodium carboxymethyl cellulose with Efke PL100. I let the reaction run for 30 sec., figuring that development would be done quickly and a little extra fix time couldn't hurt.

Reaction time was quick indeed. 7.2 g of amidol is a lot in 180 cc of solution. I got a very dense, foggy, somewhat mottled neg, but there was an image there. I rinsed and refixed in TF-4 just to be sure it was really fixed before washing, and I'd guess for the most part, the neg was as clear as it was going to get coming out of the solution.

I don't think I'll pursue this formula any further, but it was interesting to see what happened with it.

Photo Engineer · Dec 15, 2008

The mottle may have been uneven spread due to repellancy, or uneven spread due to thickness. We used to use 5 mil rails made of an inert material. You might try rails of 2 layers of scotch tape on each side of the negative to allow a thicker speread of material.

PE

David A. Goldfarb · Dec 15, 2008

I didn't thicken it. I left out the thickener and processed it in a tray.

I suppose the thickener slows things down, and the thin layer would let the developer exhaust and stop the process, and if I wanted to pursue this without thickening, I might just use a more dilute solution or less amidol and ascorbic acid, but I'm not entirely sure it's worth fiddling with.

Photo Engineer · Dec 15, 2008

I hear you. We did hundreds of these a day at work. UGH. I still shudder to think of how hard and monotonous this was and how hard interpretation was.

A long time ago and far away now.

PE

Harry Lime · Jan 4, 2009

I would like

- A highly concentrated 2-bath version of XTOL.

- A tester solution to see if XTOL has died, like there is for testing for fixer exhaustion. You add a drop to the fixer and it produces a milky fog, if it is exhausted. I would like something like that for XTOL.

Photo Engineer · Jan 4, 2009

Harry;

There is a test. First you develop a small snip of film in fresh Xtol and measure the time it takes to blacken totally.

Then, every time you run a batch of film, you just run the same test first on the developer you are about to use. If the test fails to produce dmax in the same time as the original fresh test, the developer is bad.

PE

Martin Aislabie · Jan 29, 2009

PE, I would like to see a Fixer with some sort of exhaustion indicator built in (dye/colour change/what ever..)

I throw away loads of fixer because I don't want to over use the stuff beyond the recommended limits.

I tend the throw away the stuff before I reach the recommended limit but know the recommended limits are always at a safe level with some error margin thrown in for good measure

As a student at University (seems a long time ago) I experienced the usual communal darkroom problems of exhausted fixer slowly killing prints over the following months and vowed never to repeat the experience

Its not the cost of the fixer that motivates this request, its the needless consumption.

Not sure if what I request is chemically possible but you did ask what products we would like

Martin

Ian Grant · Jan 29, 2009

You can buy Merck silver indicator papers to tell you the fixer silver content, they are quite expensive but useful. I have a few tubes left over from working in precious metal recovery.

These will tell you if the siver content is too high.

Ian

Photo Engineer · Jan 29, 2009

I just use Potassium Iodide solution as suggested by Kodak.

PE

Andrew Moxom · Jan 29, 2009

Ron, what is theKodak Potassium Iodide solution recommendation? I'd be curious too about a color indicating fixer.

Photo Engineer · Jan 29, 2009

Take about 10 ml of used fixer and add 1 drop of the KI solution (I forget the concentration, but there is a publication on it and the Formulary sells it.) The KI solution turns to a bright yellow precipitate if the fixer is exhausted or pale yellow and cloody if nearly exhausted. It is very reliable.

A slight yellow tinge is not exhaustion, just use.

PE

brian steinberger · Jan 29, 2009

Martin Aislabie said:
PE, I would like to see a Fixer with some sort of exhaustion indicator built in (dye/colour change/what ever..)

I throw away loads of fixer because I don't want to over use the stuff beyond the recommended limits.

I tend the throw away the stuff before I reach the recommended limit but know the recommended limits are always at a safe level with some error margin thrown in for good measure

As a student at University (seems a long time ago) I experienced the usual communal darkroom problems of exhausted fixer slowly killing prints over the following months and vowed never to repeat the experience

Its not the cost of the fixer that motivates this request, its the needless consumption.

Not sure if what I request is chemically possible – but you did ask what products we would like

Martin

Martin,

I use Edwal's Hypo Check. When I think the fixer may be nearing exhaustion I add a drop or two to the fix and if you see a white precipitate then the fixer is shot. If I see even the slightest bit of white I'll dump the fix. I usually have a good idea of how exhausted my fixer is, so I have a good idea of when I should test it. http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/16686-REG/Edwal_EDHC3_4_Hypo_Check_Liquid_.html

Martin Aislabie · Jan 29, 2009

Ian Grant said:
You can buy Merck silver indicator papers to tell you the fixer silver content, they are quite expensive but useful. I have a few tubes left over from working in precious metal recovery.

These will tell you if the siver content is too high.

Ian

Thanks Ian

Found something similar at Silverprint

http://www.silverprint.co.uk/ProductByGroup.asp?PrGrp=523

Its much easier to search for something when you know exactly what you are looking for.

Thats the trouble with the Internet - casual browsing is a problem

I would like to go - but know a visit would be v bad for my bank balance

Martin

Ian Grant · Jan 29, 2009

I've used those test strips to, we used to cut each into two or three for economy.

Photo Engineer said:
Take about 10 ml of used fixer and add 1 drop of the KI solution (I forget the concentration, but there is a publication on it and the Formulary sells it.) The KI solution turns to a bright yellow precipitate if the fixer is exhausted or pale yellow and cloody if nearly exhausted. It is very reliable.

A slight yellow tinge is not exhaustion, just use.

PE

That's fine except for archival processing of fibre based papers as the level of silver would be too high, unless you use that to test the first bath's exhaustion, the second always being fresh fixer.

Ian

Photo Engineer · Jan 29, 2009

If you follow the Kodak instructions, or those on the Formulary kit and the hypo passes, and then test for washing with hypo and silver retention kits and the paper passes, FB paper is just fine.

PE

Ian Grant · Jan 29, 2009

How can we take advice from a company that don't even make B&W papers, RC or FB :rolleyes:

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Larry Bullis

PHOTOTONE

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JBrunner

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Larry Bullis

Frank Szabo

David A. Goldfarb

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acroell

David A. Goldfarb

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Photo Engineer

David A. Goldfarb

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Photo Engineer

Harry Lime

Photo Engineer

Martin Aislabie

Ian Grant

Photo Engineer

Andrew Moxom

Photo Engineer

brian steinberger

Martin Aislabie

Ian Grant

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Ian Grant

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