New MF with fisheye and high flash sync.

p0ussin · Sep 1, 2009

Hi everyone,

I'm looking for a new MF cam. I already have a Hasselblad 500 that is pretty OK but as I shoot loads of skateboarding, I need a fisheye lense BUT it's far too expensive in hasselblad. That's why I bought a cheap kiev russian body with cheap arsat fisheye mounted on it. But the problem here was the flash sync that only goes up to 1/30, which is far too slow to shoot skateboarding in daylight woth strobes. Then Im just able to shoot at night with.

So I'm looking for any cam that could have no really expensive fisheye, that has 1/500 flash sync, AND squared format 6 x 6.

I've found Bronica SQ Series, with zenzanon 35mm/f3.5 but it's still a bit expensive because of the fisheye that is about $1500 USD.

Do you have any idea ?

Thanks in advance for your help.

Krzys · Sep 1, 2009

Find a Salyut or Kiev kit- they usually come with a fisheye quite cheap.

But focal plane shutter = bad flash sync for skate shots.

Shaggysk8 · Sep 1, 2009

Bronica ETRS not the format but its 645 will sync at 1/500, as for cost camera will be about £150 - £200 and lenses £50 for the EII (ok lens) £100ish for MC and the PE the best they made will be about £150.

WRSchmalfuss · Sep 1, 2009

Cheap Fisheye for Hasselblad

The problem is the leaf shutter required for your Hasselblad camera. If your camera body would have a focal plan shutter, then there would be the possibility to adapt a fairly reasonable ARSAT 3,5/30mm fisheye to it.

Cheers

Fred De Van · Sep 1, 2009

p0ussin said:
Hi everyone,

I need a fisheye lense BUT it's far too expensive in hasselblad. That's why I bought a cheap kiev russian body with cheap arsat fisheye mounted on it. But the problem here was the flash sync that only goes up to 1/30, which is far too slow to shoot skateboarding in daylight woth strobes. Then Im just able to shoot at night with.

So I'm looking for any cam that could have no really expensive fisheye, that has 1/500 flash sync, AND squared format 6 x 6.

You are dealing with a reality of physics and not one of which camera system. The cheapest and most direct solution is simply get a higher output flash system.The fact that Kiev and Arsat combination is cheap is nothing more than a happy coincidence. Not a determinate of capability.

Get the slowest film that fits your need. Get a flash which can overpower the ambient light.

I have 3 Kiev 88/cm's, A pentacon 6, and a Kiev 60. All of which have the limits that all focal plane shutters have when covering a 60mm distance. Trust me, you can make some very interesting images despite or because of the 1/30 synch speed. It is a lot simpler and cheaper to get something like a Quantum or any studio unit than try to find a better alternitive to the Kiev/Arsat combo. There may be no other nor better than the super costly Zeiss.

David A. Goldfarb · Sep 1, 2009

Do you want a true fisheye that produces a curved image or an ultrawide? The Hassy and Bronica lenses I think you're looking at are ultrawides designed to produce a rectilinear image.

I agree with Fred de Van that if you want to balance daylight with strobes using a medium format SLR then your easiest solution is to use bigger strobes and slower film or an ND filter.

If you give up the SLR requirement, then you can look at various wideangle cameras that have leaf shutter lenses or large format cameras with wide lenses and rollfilm backs or sheet film. At the low end of the price range, you would be considering something like a press camera with a Schneider 47/8 Super-Angulon and a Graflex 6x9 rollfilm back, or even a box camera with a simple focusing mechanism of your own making.

perkeleellinen · Sep 1, 2009

You don't *need* a fisheye lens. The fisheye has become such a cliché in skate photography, all the magazines are full of those shots - to me this shows how conservative photo editors are. My advice would be to create shots that are unique and not so derivative: use other lenses.

keithwms · Sep 1, 2009

The rb67 fisheye will synch at 1/400. It is a very good lens.

Nick Zentena · Sep 1, 2009

My RZ fisheye from KEH in good condition [Don't remember if it was BGN or not] was about $600 a few years back. Watch KEH and see what shows up. You won't find a leaf shutter lens in the Kiev price range.

keithwms · Sep 1, 2009

The RB fisheye will be even less expensive than the RZ and can also work well on a RZ but they are both excellent lenses... surprisingly excellent.

N.b. if you are willing to defish your results (electronically) you can get some really spectacular shots with these lenses. What I do is use the 6x8 back on the rb, and the corners will be pretty bad and distorted looking but you need that extra image area when you do the dewarping.

You can also put the rb/rz fisheye on a 4x5 or 5x7 camera and get the whole image circle, it's pretty cool looking.

p0ussin · Sep 1, 2009

Thanks a lot you all, I am going to read all of this. =)

Q.G. · Sep 1, 2009

David A. Goldfarb said:
Do you want a true fisheye that produces a curved image or an ultrawide? The Hassy and Bronica lenses I think you're looking at are ultrawides designed to produce a rectilinear image.

The Zeiss/Hasselblad Fisheye is, of course, a fisheye.

It will allow flash synch up to 1/500. But at what price, still...

David A. Goldfarb · Sep 1, 2009

Q.G. said:
The Zeiss/Hasselblad Fisheye is, of course, a fisheye.

It will allow flash synch up to 1/500. But at what price, still...

Thanks, I realize I looked it up and was looking at the wrong lens.

c.w. · Sep 1, 2009

Or just shoot at night / when it's fairly dark, and let the flash stop the action instead of the shutter.

p0ussin · Sep 2, 2009

Yes thanks, that's exactly what I did but the fact is that I don't want to be limited to shoot only at night.

Mamiya sounds to be good, i'll have a look in this way =)

Lee J · Sep 2, 2009

p0ussin said:
I'm looking for a new MF cam. I already have a Hasselblad 500 that is pretty OK but as I shoot loads of skateboarding, I need a fisheye lense BUT it's far too expensive in hasselblad.

So I'm looking for any cam that could have no really expensive fisheye, that has 1/500 flash sync, AND squared format 6 x 6.

The problem, when you get a medium format fisheye, is that you will soon find out that you need better lights - you'll discover that the flash durations are too slow and shots that look sharp when shot long lense don't look anything like as sharp when shot up close with the fisheye. So you end up not only having spent $1000 or more on a lens but you're not happy with the results. Unless you're using Lumedynes already? You need faster flash durations, so you power down your flashes, which means you don't have enough power, so you need more flashes. See what I'm getting at here?

Shooting MF fisheye with flashes is nothing but an expensive pain in the ass in my experience. I've used both the Bronica SQ fisheye and the Zeiss and everytime I stuck those $2500 bits of glass 12 inches in front of fast moving bits of wood and metal, with flashes that weren't quite up to the job, I was never really happy with the end result - even the stuff that got run.

p0ussin · Sep 3, 2009

Lee J said:
The problem, when you get a medium format fisheye, is that you will soon find out that you need better lights - you'll discover that the flash durations are too slow and shots that look sharp when shot long lense don't look anything like as sharp when shot up close with the fisheye. So you end up not only having spent $1000 or more on a lens but you're not happy with the results. Unless you're using Lumedynes already? You need faster flash durations, so you power down your flashes, which means you don't have enough power, so you need more flashes. See what I'm getting at here?

Shooting MF fisheye with flashes is nothing but an expensive pain in the ass in my experience. I've used both the Bronica SQ fisheye and the Zeiss and everytime I stuck those $2500 bits of glass 12 inches in front of fast moving bits of wood and metal, with flashes that weren't quite up to the job, I was never really happy with the end result - even the stuff that got run.

Well usually i go and shoot with 3 vivitar hv285, but I also have balcar strobes. Even if they're not portable, i mean they need electricity. But I planed to perhaps get sume alienbees... That's the fact, in photography, you always need some more to do what you expect. grrrr

Lee J · Sep 3, 2009

p0ussin said:
Well usually i go and shoot with 3 vivitar hv285, but I also have balcar strobes. Even if they're not portable, i mean they need electricity. But I planed to perhaps get sume alienbees... That's the fact, in photography, you always need some more to do what you expect. grrrr

I can tell you for a fact that Vivitar 285's won't be up to the job. They claim a 1/1000 flash duration at full power but I (and other skate photographers) believe this isn't true. A good solution for them is to double them up and fire them at 1/2 power. That means you need at least 6.

Rudeofus · Sep 3, 2009

Lee J said:
I can tell you for a fact that Vivitar 285's won't be up to the job. They claim a 1/1000 flash duration at full power but I (and other skate photographers) believe this isn't true.

If you look at the light output vs. time curves of small flashes, you'll see most of the light output happening during the first 1/1000. But especially at full power your flash will continue to output light for up to 1/100 of a second. There is a Dead Link Removed showing the discharge curve of a 550EX at full power and lower power settings. Even without german language skills these curves should be easy to interpret.

Since almost all compact flashes regulate power like this, I assume the same applies to your Vivitar.

Lee J said:
A good solution for them is to double them up and fire them at 1/2 power. That means you need at least 6.

As the curves in the above web page show, firing at 1/2 power severely reduces the flash duration and will most likely do the job. Note, that this will not work with studio strobes, regardless of power setting. Studio strobes regulate flash energy by changing the voltage or by switching capacitors, so flash duration will stay long at all power settings.

David A. Goldfarb · Sep 3, 2009

Rudeofus said:
Note, that this will not work with studio strobes, regardless of power setting. Studio strobes regulate flash energy by changing the voltage or by switching capacitors, so flash duration will stay long at all power settings.

I don't believe that this is the case. Usually, yes, the light output is regulated by switching capacitors, but the effect of switching capacitors is to change the flash duration. Here, for example, is an instruction manual for a Norman p808 pack, and on the last page of the PDF, there is a table showing that flash duration decreases as power decreases, though the degree to which that happens will depend on the strobe head (so maybe older style heads allow for a more dramatic difference in flash duration with power output)--

http://normanlights.com/manuals/p808mmanual.pdf

In dance photography like Lois Greenfield's work, for instance, where studio strobes are being used to stop action, the technique is still more heads, less power per head.

Lee J · Sep 3, 2009

David A. Goldfarb said:
I don't believe that this is the case. Usually, yes, the light output is regulated by switching capacitors, but the effect of switching capacitors is to change the flash duration.

It depends on the make and model - Alien Bees, which the OG poster has expressed an interest in, and Lumedynes actually increase in duration when you power them down. Their durations are given using t.1 measurement however, the Vivitar's 1/1000 is a (no doubt) t.5 measurement. Obviously we would take a 1/1000 t.1 over a 1/1000 t.5, especially as the higher end heads put out more power.

Most hot shoe / handle mount flashes decrease in duration when powered down. Sunpak 555's and Nikon sb800's are other models popular with skate photographers, although again these need to be used at half power to get a quick enough duration.

p0ussin · Sep 4, 2009

Does it mean that I won't be able to catch sharp pictures with bronica or hasselblad ( with fisheye ) coupled to 3 vivitar's ?

Rudeofus · Sep 4, 2009

David A. Goldfarb said:
I don't believe that this is the case. Usually, yes, the light output is regulated by switching capacitors, but the effect of switching capacitors is to change the flash duration.

If you switch off capacitors, the whole flash duration might become shorter, but the change is not going to be dramatic. Look at the flash discharge curves I linked to: if you turn the 550EX (or any similar flash) to 1/2 power, the flash duration goes down from 5ms to below 1ms. If you do the same with your norman, you have no change at all. In a 550EX (or any other compact flash) light power is actively interrupted, whereas in a studio strobe light goes down as the capacitor discharges. Even if you reduce your norman flash to 1/8 power, you are still at 1/2 the flash duration of full power, where the 550EX's flash duration is already down to 0.25ms!

Obviously we have to include total flash energy in our consideration, a compact flash at 1/2 power outputs approximately 25Ws, whereas that norman flash at 1/4 power yields 200Ws with the same listed flash duration. Unfortunately you manual does not say whether these numbers are t.1 or t.5, which makes a huge difference with exponential decay.

p0ussin said:
Does it mean that I won't be able to catch sharp pictures with bronica or hasselblad ( with fisheye ) coupled to 3 vivitar's ?

That's strongly dependent on actual amount of ambient light in the scene, isn't it? You will have times where 10 Vivitars won't do the job, and other times where one is plenty. Upping flash power just increases the amount of time where you get acceptable results.

Lee J · Sep 4, 2009

p0ussin said:
Does it mean that I won't be able to catch sharp pictures with bronica or hasselblad ( with fisheye ) coupled to 3 vivitar's ?

Like rudeofus says above, it depends on the ambient. Whenever you can overpower the ambient by at least one full stop then you shouldn't have a problem. However, on bright days it will be difficult with Vivitars (remember, the vivitars don't really have as short a duration as they claim).

Consider this - some of the sharpest shots I got when shooting with MF fisheye was when I was using only one flash, but could get it close enough to the subject to over power the ambient whilst having the flash at low enough power to have a quick duration.

Sirius Glass · Sep 4, 2009

p0ussin said:
Does it mean that I won't be able to catch sharp pictures with bronica or hasselblad ( with fisheye ) coupled to 3 vivitar's ?

Here is a thought ... in the past, I would take a very wide angle photograph and use a focal plane flashbulb in a fan fold flash attachment what was flat. That is, I would not attach the last fan fold to the first fan fold and hence not make it a curved reflector.

A focal plane flashbulb has a long high output that last many milliseconds. Couple this bulb using the X synchronization and the leaf shutter of a Hasselblad and you will have a very bright light source. IIRC it should be much brighter than the three strobes.

I think it would be worth locating FP6A bulbs and a flash attachment and conducting an experiment. I believe that this method with a 400 ISO film will solve your problem.

Steve

New MF with fisheye and high flash sync.

p0ussin

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Shaggysk8

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