New Mexico missions

jtk · Jun 10, 2018

It's easy, normal, to forget the people who own the land by treaty and by (imo) divine right. National Park Service, Bureau of Land Management, and Navajo Nation do accept that (still) even though corporate America and its servants in Washington hate that. In general there's no problem with a little wandering on foot of the Navajo Nation, but permits of various kind are required if you want to hike/hunt/camp/drive-off-road and although the Navajo don't historically believe land should be owned, they expect respect as if they did...which calls for humility, taking a little time with them, telling them (if they ask) where you come from in terms of your own lineage...they're slow to respond and they listen more closely than they let on. I've got about 20 years of relationship history (through competitive archery and child mentoring) with Navajo people: when I meet someone I've not spoken with for a long time, he/she remembers me. I'm grateful.

Arklatexian · Jun 11, 2018

alanrockwood said:
I am intrigued about the possibility of an expedition to New Mexico to photograph some of the old Spanish missions there. Any thoughts?

Yes, go at the end of September and the beginning of October, photograph in the Northern Half of the state, take your time and do it right. Don't just shoot color, when the leaves have changed color b&w can be very dramatic and lastly, it would sure be nice if you ran into me out there but I am too old to make those trips any longer. The idea of shootings the mission churches sounds great and remember they will probably be there next trip so take the time to do quality work...............Regards!

Arklatexian · Jun 11, 2018

jtk said:
Important to distinguish between "missions" and "moradas." The former were created by Spanish occupiers, the latter were created by people who'd become disconnected from the RCC due to its excesses, many of them remaining disconnected for spiritual reasons and due to suffering that had been imposed on them by that church. Chimayo wasn't a mission and has only recently been approved by RCC, ie only recently "consecrated."

http://www.williamtalbot.com/missions-moradas/pdf/talbot-missionsmoradas-2012-catalog.pdf

At one time we took a great magazine called, what else: "New Mexico Magazine" and several articles in that magazine were about "moradas". Some of these were established by Jewish People in Spain who had "converted". The Inquisition in Spain did not consider them sincere and started a campaign to force them to "confess". Many left Spain, came to the New World and got as far as possible from the Spanish government in Mexico which was, for them, Northern New Mexico. According to the articles, these were the people who built the "Moradas" and many of their decendents still worship there. The services at some celebrate some Jewish Holy Days in addition to the RCC Holy Days. I found those articles to be fascinating. I wonder if that magazine is being published again?....../Regards!

jtk · Jun 11, 2018

Arklatexian said:

At one time we took a great magazine called, what else: "New Mexico Magazine" and several articles in that magazine were about "moradas". Some of these were established by Jewish People in Spain who had "converted". The Inquisition in Spain did not consider them sincere and started a campaign to force them to "confess". Many left Spain, came to the New World and got as far as possible from the Spanish government in Mexico which was, for them, Northern New Mexico. According to the articles, these were the people who built the "Moradas" and many of their decendents still worship there. The services at some celebrate some Jewish Holy Days in addition to the RCC Holy Days. I found those articles to be fascinating. I wonder if that magazine is being published again?....../Regards!

Click to expand...

Yes, the magazine is still published beautifully.

fyi the Episcopal church typically celebrates Jewish high holy days. There's no contradiction.

The main reason for moradas was that when the Roman Catholic Church was driven from New Mexico during the Pueblo Revolt (which partially had to do with that Church's abuses), the rural people, who had always lived like Pueblo Indians and had not oppressed or abused them, were determined to continue a version of Catholic religious services that was organically closer to the historic Church than the Vatican ever wanted. Consequentially the moradas survived when the priests fled.

Sirius Glass · Jun 11, 2018

jtk said:
Yes, the magazine is still published beautifully.

fyi the Episcopal church typically celebrates Jewish high holy days. There's no contradiction.

The main reason for moradas was that when the Roman Catholic Church was driven from New Mexico during the Pueblo Revolt (which partially had to do with that Church's abuses), the rural people, who had always lived like Pueblo Indians and had not oppressed or abused them, were determined to continue a version of Catholic religious services that was organically closer to the historic Church than the Vatican ever wanted. Consequentially the moradas survived when the priests fled.

According to Uprising: The Pueblo Indians and the First American War for Religious Freedom by Jake Page, the Pueblo Revolt was the only war the Native Americans won and therefore should properly called a revolution.

alanrockwood · Jun 12, 2018

Alan Edward Klein said:
Thanks for the suggestions. We're staying two nights in The View Hotel in Monument Valley which is run by the Navaho Indians who own the National Monument land. Our 2md floor room's windows look out East to the Monuments so I hope to get some sunrise pictures. My wife told me to just let her sleep. We also plan to drive around the monuments around sunset, hopefully getting some good light. https://goo.gl/maps/9eptkafAXWv

We're staying three nights in Moab. That will get us into Arches and Canyonlands including Island in the Sky. I also plan to take the Colorado River Scenic Byway road tour out of Moab and visit the Moab Museum of Film and Western Heritage along the way. I originally planned on stopping at Needles on the way to Moab. But I'm going to skip it to reduce some of my driving.

How was your trip Alan?

Bryce canyon is named after an old time Mormon rancher, apparently the first white man to see the canyon. When asked about it later Mr. Bryce said "It's a hellava place to lose a cow."

By the way, do you know the origin of the name "Alan"? There are several versions, but the most likely one is also the most interesting one, and it is the one for which my wife says "It explains a lot".

jtk · Jun 12, 2018

Sirius Glass said:

According to Uprising: The Pueblo Indians and the First American War for Religious Freedom by Jake Page, the Pueblo Revolt was the only war the Native Americans won and therefore should properly called a revolution.

Click to expand...

Reality on the ground is that many native tribes (including Navajo, of course) are legally NATIONS, not mere American states or territories. More independent than Hawaii or Puerto Rico. The Pueblo Revolt defeated Spain, not the United States. The subsequent (temporary) American occupation was painful ( great read: https://www.amazon.com/Blood-Thunder-Carson-Conquest-American/dp/1400031109 ). .Situation is similar to that in Korea and Vietnam, where the citizens drove the American invader out (not a "revolution"). I'm especially interested in Navajo people, shot arrows competitively with them two weeks ago...was visited this past weekend by two Navajo girls who are mentored by my girlfriend. The Pueblo people, like the Apache and many others are also Nations...as such they cannot be seen as having been "revolutionary."

I strongly recommend https://www.amazon.com/Blood-Thunder-Carson-Conquest-American/dp/1400031109 for anyone interested in the Southwest. It's a gripping story, hard to put down... especially appealing to people who enjoy Navajo neighbors and enjoy New Mexico's boondocks.

Alan Edward Klein · Jun 12, 2018

alanrockwood said:
How was your trip Alan?

Bryce canyon is named after an old time Mormon rancher, apparently the first white man to see the canyon. When asked about it later Mr. Bryce said "It's a hellava place to lose a cow."

By the way, do you know the origin of the name "Alan"? There are several versions, but the most likely one is also the most interesting one, and it is the one for which my wife says "It explains a lot".

Thanks for asking. I should of reported back earlier considering all the help offered here. We got back April 27th. Well, first, I didn't get to see any NM missions. But I did see Santa Fe, Moab, and Sedona (Red Rocks State Park) and visited the famous parks: Bryce, Zion, Grand Canyon, Capitol Reef, Arches, Canyonlands and Dead Horse State Park, Four Corners, and Monument Valley. Here's some shots and one video from the trip. Thanks again, all, for your suggestions.. https://www.flickr.com/photos/alanklein2000/albums/72157694819890421

alanrockwood · Jun 12, 2018

Alan Edward Klein said:
Thanks for asking. I should of reported back earlier considering all the help offered here. We got back April 27th. Well, first, I didn't get to see any NM missions. But I did see Santa Fe, Moab, and Sedona (Red Rocks State Park) and visited the famous parks: Bryce, Zion, Grand Canyon, Capitol Reef, Arches, Canyonlands and Dead Horse State Park, Four Corners, and Monument Valley. Here's some shots and one video from the trip. Thanks again, all, for your suggestions.. https://www.flickr.com/photos/alanklein2000/albums/72157694819890421

You have some great photos of the red rock region.

Alan Edward Klein · Jun 13, 2018

Thanks. All the places were very interesting and beautiful. I thought Canyonlands including the Green River vista and Dead Horse Point State Park, part of Canyonlands but belonging to the State of Utah (extra fee) were even more dramatic than Grand Canyon. That could be because my heart was pounding being so close to 1000 foot cliffs, including driving that close as well. My car is right behind the photographer.
Here I'm about ten feet from the Dead Horse Point cliff and the stranger I asked to take my picture is asking me to step back a little for the shot. I'm looking at him incredulously. "Are you kidding?""

Sirius Glass · Jun 13, 2018

Alan Edward Klein said:
Thanks. All the places were very interesting and beautiful. I thought Canyonlands including the Green River vista and Dead Horse Point State Park, part of Canyonlands but belonging to the State of Utah (extra fee) were even more dramatic than Grand Canyon. That could be because my heart was pounding being so close to 1000 foot cliffs, including driving that close as well. My car is right behind the photographer.
Here I'm about ten feet from the Dead Horse Point cliff and the stranger I asked to take my picture is asking me to step back a little for the shot. I'm looking at him incredulously. "Are you kidding?""
View attachment 202332

Looking down from Dead Horse Point I saw off road vehicles driving on the dirt roads and that is when I decided to get into off roading.

Alan Edward Klein · Jun 13, 2018

Is that you escaping or driving?

alanrockwood · Jun 13, 2018

By the way, I love Dead Horse Point. In some ways I like it better than Grand Canyon. It's kind of like a vest pocket version of Grand Canyon.

Alan Edward Klein · Jun 13, 2018

alanrockwood said:
By the way, I love Dead Horse Point. In some ways I like it better than Grand Canyon. It's kind of like a vest pocket version of Grand Canyon.

I agree.

jtk · Jun 13, 2018

fyi virtually none of the places that have been mentioned are in New Mexico, save for Santa Fe.

And what about "missions?"

I wonder why photographers are afraid to photograph the human beings who literally own these places?

Many of the Utah "scenic" locations, like most of those in Colorado, will soon be destroyed by squadrons of 4X4 machines.

Alan Edward Klein · Jun 13, 2018

jtk said:
fyi virtually none of the places that have been mentioned are in New Mexico, save for Santa Fe.

And what about "missions?"

I wonder why photographers are afraid to photograph the human beings who literally own these places?

Many of the Utah "scenic" locations, like most of those in Colorado, will soon be destroyed by squadrons of 4X4 machines.

Here's a shot of a Navajo woman in the valley at Monument Valley. I asked her if I could take her picture not knowing if it would have been appropriate to take it without asking. She said sure and smiled for it. I stayed two nigjhts at The View Hotel in Monument Valley which is owned, operated and staffed by Navajo. They were all very nice including the special tour operators (all Navajo who run 4x4's in the Valley that they own). The Navajo own and use their land for commercial purposes and sell these purposes to non-Navajo people. I spent over $700 there on rooms and artwork made by Navajo artists. I hope you're not implying that visitors should feel some sort of shame for visiting as I felt nothing but courtesy and appreciation for my visit.
edit= corrected spelling of Navajo.

faberryman · Jun 13, 2018

jtk said:
I wonder why photographers are afraid to photograph the human beings who literally own these places?

Some people like to photograph architecture and others like to make portraits?

jtk · Jun 13, 2018

Alan Edward Klein said:
Here's a shot of a Navajo woman in the valley at Monument Valley. I asked her if I could take her picture not knowing if it would have been appropriate to take it without asking. She said sure and smiled for it. I stayed two nigjhts at The View Hotel in Monument Valley which is owned, operated and staffed by Navajo. They were all very nice including the special tour operators (all Navajo who run 4x4's in the Valley that they own). The Navajo own and use their land for commercial purposes and sell these purposes to non-Navajo people. I spent over $700 there on rooms and artwork made by Navajo artists. I hope you're not implying that visitors should feel some sort of shame for visiting as I felt nothing but courtesy and appreciation for my visit.
edit= corrected spelling of Navajo.

View attachment 202369

Alan, great shot. Depicts an important reality and your own positive relations. I hope I didn't suggest anybody should feel shame. It's typical of Navajo and other nice people to be courteous and appreciative.

IMO the Navajo Nation is making a mistake with motorized tours, but that's not my business. I've enjoyed Navajo-guided hikes in Canyon De Chelly (AZ) and I encourage that because a) the 1+1 relationships b) the beauty and lack of machine stench c) the exercise.

I'm sure you've enjoyed Grand Canyon Suite: https://video.search.yahoo.com/yhs/...701bd97936bcec09cf0c528e8f83d99a&action=click

jtk · Jun 13, 2018

https://www.yelp.com/biz/canyon-de-...sting&utm_medium=partnership&utm_source=yahoo

BradS · Jun 13, 2018

alanrockwood said:
I am intrigued about the possibility of an expedition to New Mexico to photograph some of the old Spanish missions there. Any thoughts?

Time spent on recon is seldom wasted.

Sirius Glass · Jun 13, 2018

Alan Edward Klein said:
Is that you escaping or driving?

Driving. I told the spotter to move to the side because I would be coming up quickly. He said he did not need to. He thought that I would move up very slowly with wheels slipping which happens with a short wheel base. I pressed the gas slightly and went right up, which surprised him.

New Mexico missions

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