New Kickstarter: Mercury, a universal, open camera system

pdeeh said:

Hmm let's see if I've got this right ...

APUG Community: We're all doomed! No-one makes film cameras any more! The world is going to hell in handcart! Digital is awful!

Zach: Hey look guys, we're making a new film camera! Why not support us?!

APUG Community: What a ridiculous idea. No-one wants your stupid camera, there's no market for it. Just subscribe to APUG and then shut up.

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No, you didn't get it right.

Plenty of people make film cameras.

And I didn't see anyone in the forum being rude, just honest. If you want to be fawned over, post on facebook.

This is a technical site on analog photography. Expect opinions.

-chuck

rhizomeblur said:

... truthfully I don't know how large the market is for this ...

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I certainly wish you no ill will. However, leaving aside any subjective prejudices of film people and desires for new products, etc. etc.; from an objective viewpoint, this is a fundamental flaw in any (Any!) business plan. I applaud your efforts, but I think you (and your "investors") are taking a big risk.

An Instax wide camera is all that I want. From the KS page it does not look like this is a backer option.

David Brown said:

rhizomeblur said: (there was a url link here which no longer exists)
... truthfully I don't know how large the market is for this ...

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I certainly wish you no ill will. However, leaving aside any subjective prejudices of film people and desires for new products, etc. etc.; from an objective viewpoint, this is a fundamental flaw in any (Any!) business plan. I applaud your efforts, but I think you (and your "investors") are taking a big risk.

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This'd be a flaw with an ordinary business idea looking for investors. It isn't here, because kickstarter answers the question "is there a market?" for you before any money changes hands.

chuck94022 said:

How about using my favorite large format lens with medium format film? I already have that feature with my large format camera. But my large format camera also provides movements. So I can get great quality, in medium format, with movements (swing, tilt, rise, fall, and shift). All in a large format body that I'd wager is actually lighter than the camera you're proposing (mine's a Chamonix 045n-2 - light, flexible, and sturdy, and weighs less than my Nikon DSLR).

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To be fair, you left out "for only seven times the price of the Mercury camera".

I'd like to know how much the Mercury weighs, too. From the pictures, the medium format model really doesn't look like it weighs 1.5 kg.

Really? what's the weight with lens and rangefinder and viewfinder? It's going to be hard to beat something like a Chamonix Saber. Or a Travelwide. Or a Globuscope.

rhizomeblur said:

Mercury is definitely lighter than any other medium or large format camera,

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Like a lot of people, I already have all the cameras I need, so why is this project appealing? Price, first and foremost. If I'm going to buy a toy, it has to be affordable. I'm not going to stick a $1,000 lens on this camera. I'm going to play around with large format with a lightweight, handheld package for not much more than I could do it myself out of foam core and wood but with the added bonus of a focusing helical. If I wanted a big serious expensive camera, I have those and could get more. I want a lightweight fun camera than I can take spontaneous snapshots on large film. That camera doesn't really exist on the market. Please make this happen.

I watched 2 minutes of your video and then skipped ahead and it was still a skit. No idea what this camera does and why I shouldn't invest in a proper 4x5 with a 6x12 adaptor. So you get no money from me. I learned more from the first few posts here than your kick starter page.

EdSawyer said:

Really? what's the weight with lens and rangefinder and viewfinder? It's going to be hard to beat something like a Chamonix Saber. Or a Travelwide. Or a Globuscope.

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Where can I buy a Chamonix Saber or a Globuscope? How much do they cost? I went to Travelwide's website and it looks like I can't buy the camera there either.

So how will it be possible to "beat" any of these cameras. Make a product. Make it do what they promised. Make enough to meet demand. Make it affordable. That's all.

Another unserved market: Make a back that adapts instax wide to Graflok 4x5, without increasing the distance to the film plane. Something like that would sell for sure. (though not to me, I am still too butthurt about the discontinuance of FP100c. ;-)

chuck94022 said:

the geeky pleasure of mixing and matching for the heck of it.

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To be fair, this is a powerful use case for inveterate tinkerers!

Oh there was a video there? I don't get it...

Arctic amateur said:

This'd be a flaw with an ordinary business idea looking for investors. It isn't here, because kickstarter answers the question "is there a market?" for you before any money changes hands.

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Um, not really. It just guarantees that there are enough people interested in the reward to put forward some cash. It doesn't assure that there will ever be sufficient follow-on business to keep the thing afloat or even to complete the project. Many Kickstarter projects have been funded but then immediately collapsed.

There is no substitute in business for doing your homework before opening the doors.

mesaboogie said:

I watched 2 minutes of your video and then skipped ahead and it was still a skit. No idea what this camera does and why I shouldn't invest in a proper 4x5 with a 6x12 adaptor. So you get no money from me. I learned more from the first few posts here than your kick starter page.

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calebarchie said:

Oh there was a video there? I don't get it...

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If I watched the video before reading the KS and this thread I would have totally blown it off. Didn't learn much from the video, it did turn me off, but I think the system is still a neat idea.

Arctic amateur said:

To be fair, you left out "for only seven times the price of the Mercury camera".

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You can get a sweet, fully featured 4x5 field camera with full movements, macro capable, ability to handle multiple backs, take any combination of lenses, etc., that is light weight for less than $500 USD on eb*y. Such a camera provides so much more capability, with less hassle and compromise, that the small difference in price is worthwhile. That is, of course, assuming your interest is in producing fine images, versus playing with gadgets. Not that there's anything wrong with playing with gadgets.

chuck94022 said:

You can get a sweet, fully featured 4x5 field camera with full movements, macro capable, ability to handle multiple backs, take any combination of lenses, etc., that is light weight for less than $500 USD on eb*y. Such a camera provides so much more capability, with less hassle and compromise, that the small difference in price is worthwhile. That is, of course, assuming your interest is in producing fine images, versus playing with gadgets. Not that there's anything wrong with playing with gadgets.

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That sounds good. Could you send me a link to an example?

chuck94022 said:

Um, not really. It just guarantees that there are enough people interested in the reward to put forward some cash. It doesn't assure that there will ever be sufficient follow-on business to keep the thing afloat or even to complete the project. Many Kickstarter projects have been funded but then immediately collapsed.

There is no substitute in business for doing your homework before opening the doors.

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Will there be a business afterwards if the kickstarter funds and they manage to make the thing, or will it be a one-off? Could be either. If the backers get their rewards the kickstarter was completed successfully as far as they are concerned. There's no requirement that a successful independent business must emerge.

chuck94022 said:

There is no substitute in business for doing your homework before opening the doors.

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What makes you think they haven't done their homework? They seem knowledgeable and well-prepared, and more to the point, they are open to suggestions towards improving their project. How can that be negative?

For my part, I applaud them for doing something other than the typically over-earnest Kickstarter video. To those complaining that the video did not tell them enough about the project, try reading the text. I had no trouble connecting the dots between the OP, the text on the Kickstarter page, and the intent of the video. A handful of photographers competing over a single camera body, even though each had different needs? Wait a second, that's exactly what the accompanying text describes! You would have to be willfully obtuse not to make that connection.

have to disagree with this. Any of the following fit the bill: Cambo Wide, Chamonix Saber, Globuscope, Travelwide, Crown/speed graphic, various 4x5 SLRs and TLRs, etc. All relatively lightweight, handholdable, snapshot capable.

michr said:

I want a lightweight fun camera than I can take spontaneous snapshots on large film. That camera doesn't really exist on the market.

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another one for an instax wide version. I do have all the fujis, including the 500af. plastic lenses, limited shutter speeds and good automatic ejection. I do have a belair with an instax wide back. better shutter speeds, plastic lenses and black stripes on the top and bottom of the photos. not to mention the quirky manual ejection. and yes, I have a lomo instant wide. reliable automatic shutter, automatic ejection, but still mediocre plastic lenses. I even had an instax wide back made for a mamiya universal. good lenses, manual exposure, but it's based on the belair back, hence manual ejection. and somewhat expensive. so I'm ready for another instax camera. but it should have an automatic ejection with precise rollers. no problem for the lenses, I have quite some...

if your project could offer this, you will have me immediately.

EdSawyer said:

have to disagree with this. Any of the following fit the bill: Cambo Wide, Chamonix Saber, Globuscope, Travelwide, Crown/speed graphic, various 4x5 SLRs and TLRs, etc. All relatively lightweight, handholdable, snapshot capable.

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Feel free to disagree. None of those fit the bill.

After a fair amount of digging, because apparently you can't just buy a Cambo Wide from the maker, I found the series available here:
https://www.digitalback.com/product-category/6-cambo-cameras/1-cambo-cameras-cambo-cameras/
with prices ranging from $2200 to $7200, so basically expensive.

For the Travelwide, if you ignore the fact they don't have a valid certificate you can visit
https://wanderlustcameras.com/
Can't buy it there. I'm on the waiting list and haven't gotten an email yet, so nope, not on the market.

Speed graphic, like four pounds or so. And the crown graphic is supposed to be lighter. that's good, they're pretty cheap.

I'm not finding Globuscope on any of the major camera retailers websites. Perhaps you have a link?

I've seen one Tomiyama Art-Flex online, but not for sale, and a couple of Gowlandflexes for about $2500, so unless they're still making those, I don't know what you're getting at.

According to Chamonix the Sabers are now out of stock and they won't be making any more.
http://www.chamonixviewcamera.com/saber.html

So few of these cameras are made today and only the speed/crown graphics are anywhere comparable in price to this proposed camera. Everything else is a fantasy. I have a speed graphic, and I use it handheld, but it's a bit heavy, and a bit too much camera for what I want. Proposing that I spend two to seven thousand dollars on a camera for handheld photography is ludicrous. Requiring a serious investment as a buy in is not my idea of fun. The idea that I can't participate because I can't afford it is not fun. For fun I don't want a precision-engineered, scarce, no-longer-made, expensive-to-repair jewel of a camera that I have to baby to protect my investment. There's a reason people strap GoPros to their chests and not Arriflexes. They're cheap, light and easy.

It's wrong to suggest there exist cameras that fill the niche the Mercury will be occupying. Not at that price point there isn't.

An Instax back that fits a 6x9 Graflok or 4x5 Graflok camera would be great.

michr said:

That sounds good. Could you send me a link to an example?

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http://www.ebay.com/itm/Wista-45-4x...909398?hash=item33b8de5056:g:48oAAOSwMNxXVtKs

Under $500 even including shipping. Comes with a lens and holders. Looks like a good deal to me.

chuck94022 said:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Wista-45-4x...909398?hash=item33b8de5056:g:48oAAOSwMNxXVtKs

Under $500 even including shipping. Comes with a lens and holders. Looks like a good deal to me.

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Thanks for delivering.

RauschenOderKorn said:

I like the idea and the project. And in analogue photography, you cannot be too picky about new products. So any new product is welcome ...

To me this camera looks like a universal Lomo (materials & pricing), which I believe definitely has market to sell to.
Of course, it is built to produce high quality pictures, so we will see.
I just hope Wanderlust has not scared people away from projects like this one.

Two questions to Zach:

1.) From what I can see in the KS-Project, focusing screens are not included in any of the packages. Do you plan a package which includes a LF focusing screen?
2.) When will a device to lock sheetfilm holders to the camera be available? A rubber band may be ok for a prototype, but is too DIY imho for a "commercial" camera.

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RauschenOderKorn, I think you are spot on. This is meant to be an inexpensive, light camera, not a replacement for an expensive (and awesome) view camera, or even a less expensive but heavy (and awesome) press camera. It shares a lot of the characteristics of a technical camera, but once again, is not meant to replace a Silvestri if you have a real need for that and can afford the astronomical price. It is light, and inexpensive, and just rugged enough to throw in a bag and take it lots of places that you wouldn't take these other cameras. But at the same time, as I've highlighted, it can do a lot of things that these cameras can't. Whether you want you camera to do those things (like shoot Instax with high quality lenses, or mix and match components from different systems, or create your own modules) is a matter of personal preference.

Do its cheaper materials (plastic) also equate to compromised image quality. No, not at all; as long as it is structurally sound, image quality will be a function of the lens and film you use. The Mercury just gives you a ton of options in those categories. I guarantee you that it can take the same image as a Hasselblad SWC or an Alpa. So in some way, yes, it's like a Lomo camera that can take outstanding images. It is perhaps surprising that this combo hasn't been tried before, but here it is now!

As to your questions:

1. Focusing screens are available as optional add-ons for both medium and large format. I will post photos and descriptions of those add-on components as soon as I can in an update. Right now they are merely listed (but many have asked about them and people are definitely selecting them). There's a smaller screen for the Graflok 23 back that is meant just for focusing (it doesn't cover the whole frame, but is very inexpensive), a full 6x9 ground glass, and a 4x5 glass that covers almost the whole frame, but which leaves about 1cm around the borders that it doesn't cover, but clearly marks as part of the image area. This is to keep costs down (4x5 ground glass is pricey) by using available materials, for those who want a Graflok compatible ground glass (like me!). That's why we call it "limited," but in real use it works really well. We'll also make a frame at some point for those who want to spring for larger glass to add on their own (and a fresnel, for instance).

2. We hope to have such a device available very soon, ideally before the end of the KS campaign. Certainly long before cameras ship. It will be an optional add-on, but if it is as simple as I hope, it will cost very little. I just don't want to make any promises before we have a working prototype! Even though it's simple, other items have always jumped into the queue before that one...

Thanks again for your comments and questions!

Regards,
Zach