New HC-110 Formula

[Grim Tuesday]

On the page for the "2019 Edition" of HC-110 at B&H, if you zoom in on the bottle it says "NEW FORMULA." This is confirmed by Alaris' website, where next to t-max dev and HC-110 it says "New Formula, Same Great Results:" https://imaging.kodakalaris.com/photographers-photo-printing/resources/chem-tech-info

Based on the MSDS sheets, they seem to substantially differ:

Old HC-110: https://www.digitaltruth.com/products/kodak_msds/Kodak-HC110_Film_Developer-MSDS.pdf
New HC-110: http://sds.kodakalaris.com/temp/SDS US English - KODAK HC-110 Developer.pdf?t=637013511210472235

The new formula seems to be considerably less toxic to humans and the environment, so that's cool. But it really seems like a completely different developer. I hope it is not an end of an era. Time to stock up on the yellow syrup?

 

[john_s]

It looks fairly similar to me. Interested to see borax in the new version. The new version looks a bit simpler but in effect might be quite similar to the previous version. Developing agents (3 of them) are the same. I remember reading once that Kodak had done some smart chemical compounding to make the overall combination more soluble. Nice to see that it's a pyro developer (a bit, anyway).

 

[MattKing]

Here is a link to an updated Chemical page on Kodak Alaris' website: https://imaging.kodakalaris.com/photographers-photo-printing/resources/chem-tech-info
You will note that this shows a link to a list of Catalog updates, plus links respecting individual products that are labelled "New Formula, same great results!". If you click on those links, you will get the 2017 version of the applicable datasheet.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Here is a link to an updated Chemical page on Kodak Alaris' website: https://imaging.kodakalaris.com/photographers-photo-printing/resources/chem-tech-info
You will note that this shows a link to a list of Catalog updates, plus links respecting individual products that are labelled "New Formula, same great results!". If you click on those links, you will get the 2017 version of the applicable datasheet.

I am not sure that it really is the 2017 datasheet, because it has information on new TMY-3200 which was released in 2018, wasn't it?

 

[KN4SMF]

Whenever somebody mentions "the environment", I've got their number in an instant. It's part of the prism these people look through at everything. Ho hum. MSDS is and always was a basic list for medics or firemen. But we still have laws of patent and copyright. Consider Coke syrup. I wouldn't give it another thought.

 

[MattKing]

I am not sure that it really is the 2017 datasheet, because it has information on new TMY-3200 which was released in 2018, wasn't it?

You will note that there are times for both old and new versions of the T-Max 3200 (TMZ) films - "KODAK T-MAX P3200 PROFESSIONAL ROLL FILMS" and "KODAK PROFESSIONAL T-MAX P3200 FILM" on that data sheet.
I think that is an example of one of the revisions they did without updating the indicated revision date.

 

[MattKing]

Whenever somebody mentions "the environment", I've got their number in an instant. It's the prism these people look through at everything. Ho hum.

I guess that I inherited that deep abiding concern about our environment from my Dad, who worked for almost all of his working life for Kodak. From what I can tell, my Dad's employer was extremely environmentally conscious. My Dad was environmentally active right into his 90s.

 

[KN4SMF]

Corrected

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Whenever somebody mentions "the environment", I've got their number in an instant. It's the prism these people look through at everything. Ho hum.

Whenever someone brings politics uninvited into a discussion of developers I've got their number in an instant. It's the prism these people look through at everything

Corrected

MSDS is and always was a basic list for medics or firemen. But we still have laws of patent and copyright. Consider Coke syrup. I wouldn't give it another thought.

HC-110's patent is long expired. I guess the only copyright is on the name, if even that. The current formula is protected by the idea of a trade secret, just like the Coke formula. But if you look at the MSDS sheets for the new and old one it is clear there are different chemicals, and different proportions of the active chemicals in them.

The only reason I brought up the MSDS sheet is because it reveals this fact. Coke doesn't have to file an MSDS because they do not make Coke out of hazardous chemicals (arguably...) If it was revealed that Coke had changed their formula and claimed it was a "new formula, but same great taste," I think it would be quite newsworthy.

 

[KN4SMF]

Whenever someone brings politics uninvited into a discussion of developers I've got their number in an instant. It's the prism these people look through at everything





HC-110's patent is long expired. I guess the only copyright is on the name, if even that. The current formula is protected by the idea of a trade secret, just like the Coke formula. But if you look at the MSDS sheets for the new and old one it is clear there are different chemicals, and different proportions of the active chemicals in them.

The only reason I brought up the MSDS sheet is because it reveals this fact. Coke doesn't have to file an MSDS because they do not make Coke out of hazardous chemicals (arguably...) If it was revealed that Coke had changed their formula and claimed it was a "new formula, but same great taste," I think it would be quite newsworthy.

oh for corn sakes

 

[KN4SMF]

Matt King, if your 90 year old pop is still with us, tell him there's a fellow down here in NC who thanks him for his career in providing products he was able to use dependably to put a roof over his his head. My 88 year old dad was/is an insurance man who made sure the roof was restored if it burned down. I always found the Kodak products to be of a quality beyond question.

 

[twelvetone12]

Anybody tried it yet? I was reading it is also less viscous and easier to pour.

 

[Disconnekt]

Seems interesting that Kodak reformulated HC110 (to a degree), seems like theyre doing the same with some of their other products also since there was another thread saying how there was a "new version" of Dektol and a couple other Kodak products on B&H (https://www.photrio.com/forum/threa...ktol-and-other-kodak-alaris-chemistry.169157/)

 

[Lachlan Young]

There's probably several aspects in play here - the biggest one being the use of SO² and HBr gases in the manufacturing of HC-110 - there is likely a trade-off between being able to make this product safely and economically viably. Reformulation was probably seen to be the best way to keep it reasonably affordable in smaller batches. Remember that historically, HC-110's big markets were in industrial segments that used photographic materials but were not 'photography' - the graphic arts/ printing industry for one. The decline of the use of film materials there in favour of direct to plate output will have had a drastic impact on the demand for HC-110.

 

[Anon Ymous]

... Also, john_s, that isn't pyro, it's Phenidone or a derivative.

There's a derivative of Phenidone, but also Catechol (also known as Pyrocatechol, mentioned as 1,2-Benzenediol in the MSDS)

 

[Ian Grant]

For easier comparison:

HC110 Old


Chemical name CAS No. Weight/Percentage

Diethanolamine 111-42-2 30 - 35

Sulphur dioxide 7446-09-5 15 - 20

Hydroquinone 123-31-9 5 -10

Diethylene glycol 111-46-6 5 -10

Ethanolamine 141-43-5 5 -10

Diethylenetriaminepentaacetic acid 67-43-6 1 -5

Potassium bromide 7758-02-3 1 -< 5

1,2-Benzenediol 120-80-9 0.1 -< 1

Ethylene glycol 107-21-1 0.1 -< 1

3-Pyrazolidinone, 4-methyl-1-phenyl- 2654-57-1 0.1 -< 1



HC-110 New

Chemical name CAS No Weight/Percentage

Hydroquinone 123-31-9 10 - < 20

Potassium sulphite 10117-38-1 10 - < 5

Diethylene glycol 20111-46-6 5 - < 10

Sodium tetraborate, pentahydrate 12179-04-3 1 - < 3

4-hydroxymethyl-4-methyl-1-phenyl-3-pyrazolidinone 13047-13-7 0.1 - 1

Diethanolamine 111-42-2 0.1 – 1

Potassium hydroxide 1310-58-3 0.1 – 1

1.2-Benzenediol 120-80-9 0.1 – 1

 

[Lachlan Young]

There's a derivative of Phenidone, but also Catechol (also known as Pyrocatechol, mentioned as 1,2-Benzenediol in the MSDS)

Yes, read it while half asleep & it turned into benzotriazole! Edited to remove nonsense.

Catechol has come and gone from HC110 over the years apparently - presumably it has some beneficial effect in certain formulations.

 

[AgX]

The new formula seems to be considerably less toxic to humans and the environment, so that's cool.

By exchanging DEA for Hydroquinone so to say?

I thought I knew something about eco- and human-toxicity. Maybe someone more knowledgable makes me wiser.

 

[Ian Grant]

Yes, read it while half asleep & it turned into benzotriazole! Edited to remove nonsense.

Catechol has come and gone from HC110 over the years apparently - presumably it has some beneficial effect in certain formulations.

Pyrogallol was used in two pre-WWII commercial D&P developers as an Oxygen scavenging agent, it's possible the Pyrocatechin (Catechol) plays a similar role here in HC-110. If my memory is correct there's also a Phenidone, Hydroquinone, and Pyrogallol developer in one of Ilford's Patents.

Ian

 

[Tim Stapp]

Any thoughts on the new formula's keeping properties? One of the features that I have always liked about HC 110 has been it's keeping property.

 

[Sal Santamaura]

Whenever someone brings politics uninvited into a discussion of developers I've got their number in an instant. It's the prism these people look through at everything...

The most important post in this thread. The environment is the most critical thing to our species. More critical than developers. More critical than photography. More critical than anything. Without a clean, sustainable environment, our species will not survive.

 

[markbau]

The solution to pollution is dilution!

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Alright here's a weird one... The msds drastically changed since last night. The revision date now reads 8/15 -- tomorrow. Ian Grant's copy into his post is correct as of last night. The New New msds has all the toxic to aquatic life nasties back on the menu.

 

[KN4SMF]

I haven't researched my contention concerning the MSDS. Only my opinion as to the original purpose of it, which was to aid emergency personnel with a quick reference on treating poisonings or fires. If companies were forced to list ingredients like a cake recipe then they were wide-open to others stealing intellectual property and their customers. This is all I meant here. Thanks.

 

[MattKing]

Alright here's a weird one... The msds drastically changed since last night. The revision date now reads 8/15 -- tomorrow. Ian Grant's copy into his post is correct as of last night. The New New msds has all the toxic to aquatic life nasties back on the menu.

Where did you access the MSDS from?
I ask because a lot of Kodak and Kodak Alaris data links are problematic if one is linking to them on an international site. They tend to force you into a re-direct if you are outside the US. So sometimes, a link that works on a Tuesday will end up in a different result on a Wednesday, because the internal system comes to a conclusion that (in my case) I must want to see the Canadian market link, not the US one.