New FP4+ Price Premium: Rather (Lose $ the) Fight or Switch?

Vaughn · Jun 6, 2020

I go next door to the bar to watch a play-off game. Can be expensive, but not too bad as I keep myself to two or three pints by not going over until half-time. We did accept a TV when my boys turned 5 years old...it had a VCR built in and we never told the boys the broadcast TV part of the set worked. Nasty parents! By the time they figured it out they were not interested.

FP4+ developed in Ilford's PQ Universal developer is a nice combo for alt processes, too.

PS...I prefer to make Duck Soup...sounds to be about the same receipe.

Adrian Bacon · Jun 6, 2020

JWMster said:
Adrian: Thanks. Good advice: Stop complaining and stock up now!" Yeah... that's the ticket.

I wouldn’t necessarily stock up unless it’s getting hard to find. If most everybody has it in stock and it’s generally that price, that’s what it’s going to be for the foreseeable future. If a lot of places are out, then it’s probably a supply and demand price, in which case, I would only buy what I have to have for the next couple months, because as soon as the supply turns back on the prices will settle back down, though still at a higher price than before because Ilford did in fact just raise their prices.

Adrian Bacon · Jun 6, 2020

Vaughn said:
I spent a month in southern Chile traveling/camping with my two sons...rented a small vehicle with a tent on the top. The trip was around $5000 (one son was already in Chile). Took the 5x7 and exposed 32 sheets of film. I am not going to the math, but film cost was insignificant...even if I had exposed 200 sheets.

this is a good analogy. The cost of the film alone is generally a very small part of the total cost to get that picture, and in many cases is very insignificant.

Vaughn · Jun 6, 2020

Adrian Bacon said:
this is a good analogy. The cost of the film alone is generally a very small part of the total cost to get that picture, and in many cases is very insignificant.

Of course it is nice to be able to afford to travel like that at least a few times in one's life. It might have pushed back work on building my 'real' darkroom for awhile, but I can still print and it was worth it. A few decades ago I bicycled for 5 months in NZ with a 4x5 and exposed 75 sheets of film...so my way of working is probably on the abnormal side when it comes to film consumption. But I already have more negatives than I'll have time to print (some good, some probably not-so-good..hard to know sometimes) and I keep photographing anyway.

For someone starting out with LF, the film cost can be daunting...until one starts printing 16x20 and the price of paper makes one forget about the film cost!

Adrian Bacon · Jun 6, 2020

Vaughn said:
Of course it is nice to be able to afford to travel like that at least a few times in one's life. It might have pushed back work on building my 'real' darkroom for awhile, but I can still print and it was worth it. A few decades ago I bicycled for 5 months in NZ with a 4x5 and exposed 75 sheets of film...so my way of working is probably on the abnormal side when it comes to film consumption. But I already have more negatives than I'll have time to print (some good, some probably not-so-good..hard to know sometimes) and I keep photographing anyway.

For someone starting out with LF, the film cost can be daunting...until one starts printing 16x20 and the price of paper makes one forget about the film cost!

Not to mention the cost of a large format camera, the lens, film holders, processing equipment, the cost of an enlarger that can enlarge large format film, an appropriate enlarging lens, the cost of paper as you pointed out, etc.... The cost of the film itself tends to be pretty small in comparison. That being said, it is prudent to be smart about when you buy film as sometimes you can get caught when supply is short and prices are higher than normal.

cliveh · Jun 6, 2020

FP4 is the dogs bollocks of film. Price should not be relevant.

Vaughn · Jun 6, 2020

cliveh said:
FP4 is the dogs bollocks of film. Price should not be relevant.

I had to look that up to know if it was good or bad
:-

DREW WILEY · Jun 6, 2020

I thought FP4 was the budget alternative when I can't afford my preferred TMax. It's all relative. Just lug around an 8x10 over some steep hills for awhile and you'll learn not to waste shots.

JWMster · Jun 6, 2020

Yes, part of the objective is to get my shooting LF to a point where I have the confidence to know whether I can make the shot I want... whether it's worth it or not, and if the light's not there.... not spending more than a single shot or so - if that - and just come back another time. And the path to reaching that point is going to involve probably a higher rate of shooting until I reach that point than those of your who are already there... or have been there a LONG time. At the moment, I'm just thrilled with getting film loaded without dust defects, getting film developed without a screw up, and having everything come out. I've bowed to the JOBO beast and cut my 2509 reels to 4 shots a run and that's eliminated the middle film getting screwed up. I use a big 2550 tank and run 8 shots using 2 of the 2509 reels and that's pretty much become the number of shots I'm taking when I go out. Sometimes it's a bit more (last time), but then that starts to crank the development session. What I can say is that the whole of LF teaches so much about composition and B&W that I just wish I'd done this a long time ago!!!

And yes, even though I'm an ink printer, paper and ink still make film look like the cheap and low labor content parts of the process. So you guys nailed that, too. FWIW, getting a real nice ink jet print takes a good printer, and a will to waste some paper to learn how to use that, too.

Adrian Bacon · Jun 6, 2020

JWMster said:
Yes, part of the objective is to get my shooting LF to a point where I have the confidence to know whether I can make the shot I want... whether it's worth it or not, and if the light's not there.... not spending more than a single shot or so - if that - and just come back another time. And the path to reaching that point is going to involve probably a higher rate of shooting until I reach that point than those of your who are already there... or have been there a LONG time. At the moment, I'm just thrilled with getting film loaded without dust defects, getting film developed without a screw up, and having everything come out. I've bowed to the JOBO beast and cut my 2509 reels to 4 shots a run and that's eliminated the middle film getting screwed up. I use a big 2550 tank and run 8 shots using 2 of the 2509 reels and that's pretty much become the number of shots I'm taking when I go out. Sometimes it's a bit more (last time), but then that starts to crank the development session. What I can say is that the whole of LF teaches so much about composition and B&W that I just wish I'd done this a long time ago!!!

And yes, even though I'm an ink printer, paper and ink still make film look like the cheap and low labor content parts of the process. So you guys nailed that, too. FWIW, getting a real nice ink jet print takes a good printer, and a will to waste some paper to learn how to use that, too.

We haven't even started talking about making digital prints. You want to print 16x20? That printer is going to cost you at least $1000. The ink refills alone for my printer run ~$700 for a full set and on average ~$70 per cartridge (it has 12 cartridges). Want a good scan of 4x5? A good flatbed is also easily upwards of $800-$1000, and you have to have a computer to do anything with it. A cheap hunk of junk is several hundred dollars with good ones running up into the thousands. No matter how you slice it, the cost of film tends to be relatively inexpensive compared to the cost of the rest of the system.

JWMster · Jun 6, 2020

Absolutely, Adrian. Want a really good software program to drive your expensive printer? Another $ 1,000. Want to do some Piezography? Crank the inks and the extra cartridges, and you need a dedicated B&W printer. Yes, film is like Kleenex in comparison.

BTW, FWIW, I received my Shanghai GP3 that I ordered in my fit of pique of FP4 prices. Took about a week or so.... after saying it would take two months. Here's hoping the film is even half as good as the shipping.

Adrian Bacon · Jun 7, 2020

JWMster said:
Absolutely, Adrian. Want a really good software program to drive your expensive printer? Another $ 1,000. Want to do some Piezography? Crank the inks and the extra cartridges, and you need a dedicated B&W printer. Yes, film is like Kleenex in comparison.

BTW, FWIW, I received my Shanghai GP3 that I ordered in my fit of pique of FP4 prices. Took about a week or so.... after saying it would take two months. Here's hoping the film is even half as good as the shipping.

I've not shot GP3 myself. Would be interested in getting some in house to work out processing times for replenished XTOL. Can you PM me where you bought yours?

Donald Qualls · Jun 7, 2020

JWMster said:
I received my Shanghai GP3 that I ordered in my fit of pique of FP4 prices. Took about a week or so.... after saying it would take two months. Here's hoping the film is even half as good as the shipping.

I'll second that. I've seen some remarkably good shipping direct from China in the last few months (for free) -- and some absolutely awful shipping from within the USA. I ordered a couple kitchen carts for my enlargers, and FedEx had them locally for almost two weeks. Not the supplier's problem, this was strictly a FedEx issue (their drivers are apparently trained to mark "delivery attempt" at the slightest hiccup, never, ever use an alternate route, and drop stuff with as little effort as possible -- even where a 40 lb box blocks a driveway and isn't even visible from the house -- and it's up to the shipper whether to allow recipient rerouting or hub pickup).

JWMster · Jun 7, 2020

Sometimes when the value is high or delivery a question, I've specified to ship "HOLD AT LOCATION" and picked it up from FEDEX, but I've always used an actual FEDEX office for this after once finding the location a Rite Aide and the security a bit lax. Never had a problem... but why start?

VinceInMT · Jun 7, 2020

I find the discussion the economics of photography interesting. If one is doing this as a business, the rising costs of supplies and equipment is just something that, hopefully, can be passed on to the customer. For me this has always been a hobby, one of my many, and compared to the repair/upkeep/restoration of some vintage foreign cars, the cost of film and paper is negligible.

I liked the comparison to the cost of cable TV. Like Vaughn we raised our kids with very limited access to TV and encouraged more doing than watching and did so primarily by setting an example. Both kids, now on their own, have solid careers based on their hobbies.

Back to photography, I became interested and somewhat consumed by it when I was in the army and had a friend who took me to the Special Services darkroom on our base at Camp Drum, NY. On a soldier's wage I acquired equipment little by little but was always more interested in the process so film and paper had first priority. Even though other interests have taken me out of my darkroom for spells over the years, even today, when I buy film, paper, and chemicals and don't really pay too much attention to the cost. The benefit (mostly mental) far outweighs the price.

RalphLambrecht · Jun 7, 2020

JWMster said:
Since falling under the LF 4X5 spell earlier this year and going in whole hog - even moving from Delta 400 (of necessity) to FP4+ and D-23, I've come to wonder: How did I pick the most expensive Ilford film as my go to? Huh? Delta 100 is $35 or so less per 100 sheets? What am I thining?

I even ordered some Shanghai GP3 for almost $90 less, and I'm rethinking my Foma aversion. "Maybe that was just me and I wasn't fair to the poor Bohemian....". Can't imagine I'm the only star-crossed Ilford FP4 lover. It might even be time to give the "French" Bergger a more serious try (I have a box in the fridge and a box in my "cart" at B&H sending me love notes). The thing I just don't get is the FP4+ premium over the other Ilford films.

So what are others doing? Anything? "Sucking it up and going with it?" If you're switching... even if this is a short-term price gouge until supply gets ironed out... what's your back-up plan?

Ilford FP4+ is a first-class film and we can all feel blessed that it's still available at any price; well worth the money.

Ko.Fe. · Jun 7, 2020

guangong said:
While reading this thread, it occurred to me that the money spent for film in different formats may not be so wide if the way of shooting is considered. LF is primarily a pensive activity that is more deliberative and also requires time for camera set up, etc. The days of LF press photographer ended in 1950s. Hence more keepers. At the other end, 35mm smaller, more handy camera promotes a more reckless willingness to shoot what may be quite iffy circumstances, taking more exposures but far fewer keepers than LF. In between is MF, not quite as demanding as LF but more deliberative than 35mm. I suspect that the final cost of a really good photo is about the same for all formats...unless one is a member of the 1% of the 1%. The handling of cameras of different formats varies, but cost of feeding may be about the same considering final results.

In Europe LF for press and documentary was ditched before 50ies.
LF is just useless for way too many moments photography is in use for. I have tried it and realized what I have keepers with 135 film and just nothing really special LF shots. I'm not into sixteen shades of gray on boring landscapes shots.
MF is just more clingy, usually bigger cameras with no real difference in keepers comparing to 135 film.

JWMster · Jun 29, 2020

Thanks Ralph. The more I work with FP4, the more I like it. I'm seeing some great shots i Foma 100 and 200 and Shanghai GP3 100 on Flickr, and will make sure I give these a fair hearing for a place in pantheon... but at the end of the day, I'll concede that while every step matters and every ingredient, the mix of putting it all together is what makes the image.
Good to feel as though you have some choices, but even better to work with a stable of known materials, too. There's a different look to Foma and Shanghai that I think I see, and there's definitely a place for that, but at the end of the day, it might equally happen with FP4, too. Think of Luiso here on Flickr: https://www.flickr.com/photos/lhuiso/50052964146/in/pool-chamonixcameras/ who's shown very solid treatments in Foma 100 and Shanghai GP3 100... and I am MORE than somewhat impressed.

DREW WILEY · Jun 30, 2020

Only 16 shades of gray? That sounds like the internet. Large format film is for 16,000 shades of gray.

NB23 · Jun 30, 2020

DREW WILEY said:
Only 16 shades of gray? That sounds like the internet. Large format film is for 16,000 shades of gray.

Sure, but that’s at least 15,984 shades too many for him.

pentaxuser · Jun 30, 2020

Vaughn said:
I had to look that up to know if it was good or bad
:-

There is a mountain bike hand-made by a man in Croydon, South London, and he calls it "The Dog's Bollox" It's London expression and not used greatly elsewhere in the U.K. Call something by that expression on a Friday night in a pub in Glasgow and you might be lucky enough to have time to explain its meaning and avoid having your arms ripped off and being beaten to death with the soggy ends

There is a analogy with "the price is irrelevant" phrase as well and this one is more universal. It is called "putting the cat amongst the pigeons"

pentaxuser

Vaughn · Jun 30, 2020

pentaxuser said:
There is a mountain bike hand-made by a man in Croydon, South London, and he calls it "The Dog's Bollox" ...pentaxuser

:-

There is an electric bike being pushed on the internet called the Babymaker. Of course the ads have a hot looking woman on the bike. Makes me wonder if the bike comes with bikeseat condoms.

JWMster · Jun 30, 2020

Guys... thanks for your insights.. even the views (cough cough) that might seem a tad grumpy. Hey... it comes with the territory of soliciting comments, right? But really, everything helps. Not kidding.... and helps me sort through things... and even if it's telling me what a simpleton I am - as if I didn't already know that! - and even if it's too much of a bother to throw that one out, It's all good. Where else can I go to get a good head shot?

Y'know the older we get, the fewer folks there out there who're willing to straighten us geezers out. "Yeah... he'll be dead soon... don't bother." So believe it or not, I treasure the correctives... especially the gentle ones, yeah... those are easier. But even the tougher ones help. Dead people don't get annoyed, insulted or even run the risk of getting a big head.by making "creative mistakes"... right? So thank you! It's good to be alive. And that's sincerely meant... not BS, too. Okay... maybe a little BS... 'cause I'm good at it, but actually do appreciate the feedback. Some day, I might even post an image. LOL.

DREW WILEY · Jun 30, 2020

We hill kids were jerry-rigging our own mountain bikes before the term "mountain bike" was ever invented. But having moved here to the coast as an adult, not far from where that sport was indeed invented, I've gotten to know a few of the people involved with the beginning of that fad, which turned out to be extremely lucrative. There is now an official Mountain Bike Museum in Fairfield, below Mt Tam, which is to mtn biking enthusiasts what Mt Kailas in Tibet is to Buddhists. For awhile one of those locals worked at our company. But his thing was really downhill trail roller-skating. Did it for years without incident. Then he borrowed his son's skateboard for a few minutes, got a short distance on the sidewalk, and shattered his ankle. His prior career was as the primary in-house cameraman for a successful large studio in that area, so we had quite a bit to talk about.

New FP4+ Price Premium: Rather (Lose $ the) Fight or Switch?

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