New film from Harman?

pathdoc · May 13, 2017

So long as it's quality stuff and it shoots to box speed when processed per the maker's suggestions, who really cares what it is and where it comes from?

If there's any issue you should all be obsessing about here, it's whether FPP are taking a gouging cut and fleecing customers by acting as another level of middle-man. OTOH if the buyer of a 100ft roll of this stuff is paying the same as the buyer of a 100ft roll of Kentmere 400 branded as such, there's nothing to object to, especially if it should come out that it's getting to people who wouldn't have access to bulk film without FPP's intervention.

That being said, FPP need to be honest with themselves and with others, that in the end they are merely another distributor, nothing more. If anyone's putting in hard yards right now it's Film Ferrania, and I really hope their efforts are rewarded with a permanent market presence, however small.

pentaxuser · May 13, 2017

trendland said:
So it is the same we see in the kentmere
box above.
In the past Ilford pruduced exact this stuff and marked it as "kentmere" .

Before may be kentmere pruduced it and
now Kentmere belongs to Harman/Ilford.

I am unsure if you throw these statements into the thread to simply stimulate further discussion or if you think that what you have said above may be the case. In fact I am unsure quite what you believe other than everything is possible but I think from our knowledge of dates of manufacture and of what we know about what Kentmere near Kendal produced that Kentmere film is a product of Harman in the former Ilford factory in Mobberley in the county of Cheshire and has nothing to do with Kentmere in Kendal

It is fine introducing the scenario that "everything is possible and nothing is to be believed" as conspiracy theorists do if the facts suggested that we have no way of knowing the truth but i this is not the case with respect to Kentmere film

pentaxuser

trendland · May 14, 2017

pentaxuser said:
I am unsure if you throw these statements into the thread to simply stimulate further discussion or if you think that what you have said above may be the case. In fact I am unsure quite what you believe other than everything is possible but I think from our knowledge of dates of manufacture and of what we know about what Kentmere near Kendal produced that Kentmere film is a product of Harman in the former Ilford factory in Mobberley in the county of Cheshire and has nothing to do with Kentmere in Kendal

It is fine introducing the scenario that "everything is possible and nothing is to be believed" as conspiracy theorists do if the facts suggested that we have no way of knowing the truth but i this is not the case with respect to Kentmere film

pentaxuser

May be I doubt - but Do you realy believe that in a market with such strong rule as today - some eastern manufacturer simple gone - bw films 100/400 asa will be pruduced from many different facturers and are not the same?
Just tell me what polypan f is ?

with regards

Ricardo Miranda · May 14, 2017

trendland said:
Before may be kentmere pruduced it and
now Kentmere belongs to Harman/Ilford.

Whatever - the question is what is that
film ISO 100 / ISO 400.

It is the film we all know as Kentmere 100/400 and now look : have you heard
aboud IlfordPan100 in these fine new boxes?
Is it improved Pan F now with ISO 100 ?
And the new IlfordPan400 is it cheap Hp5 in new boxes?

You are so misguided.

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)
Ilford PAN films are older and were introduced in the late 90s, ealy 2000s in some markets like some Asian and Eastern European countries where the Ilford brand hasn't the prestige that is attached to them as it is in the Western markets.
They are different from the other Ilford or Kentmere films.

railwayman3 · May 14, 2017

It's all a bit like cornflakes ! I can buy full-price Kelloggs Cornflakes from my local store, I know that will be always available on the shelf, and they they'll be, and taste, exactly the same as they have since I was a kid. Or I can buy own-brand Cornflakes from the local Lidl or Aldi store.....much cheaper, and slightly different in taste and texture, but a perfectly good breakfast. No idea who actually makes them, might be Kelloggs, might not, IDK, doesn't really matter.....

AgX · May 14, 2017

Ricardo Miranda said:
You are so misguided.

Maybe. But If I had been in Harman's position, already offering two ranges of films, I would for the the more economical one not use different films.

trendland · May 14, 2017

Ricardo Miranda said:
You are so misguided.

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)
Ilford PAN films are older and were introduced in the late 90s, ealy 2000s in some markets like some Asian and Eastern European countries where the Ilford brand hasn't the prestige that is attached to them as it is in the Western markets.
They are different from the other Ilford or Kentmere films.

Are you realy shure that Ilford Pan100
And Ilford Pan400 is not exact the same
as Kentmere100/400 we know as cheap film sunce 2009 ?
I am not speaking about traditional brands wich were in use somewere in the
very past. I am speaking aboud the films
you can buy at THIS time.

Perhaps you may doubt - indeed or you missunderstand me a little bit?

Coming to next problem with todays bw stuff - you gave a good example therefore : Changing the emulsion while selling the same film - with same name.

You should regard the brand name in concern to date of selling and you should
find out what emulsion it is actual.
No worry with TMY or Delta 100 - but
exact Kentmere is a clasic schoolbook
exmple to this method.

THE reason for this practice ?

The economical risk to establish a NEW
emulsion is today an incalculable issue to manufacturer.

Just look on a next brand new emulsion:
Firma Retropan 320.

If you realy thing : Whow a new film phantastic - you are naive.

Why? Foma is in a bad situation like Ilford some times in the past.

They have First to surwive the next 3 years - hope they will.
And they have not the finacial resources
to start improvments and production of a new film.They are not in the near of this.

So what is this Retro Style film?

It should be from a old Retro Master Roll.

At least look to the desaster of Ferrania
film - they have to sell trash (P30) because they whant to suvive the next
3 weeks!

And their marketing make an special offer (from selling trash ) and many
payed $12,50 to one 135 roll.
Now it is sold out.
From the perspective of Business Methods these guys in Italy are clever and just ok.
Smart Management from the perspective
to consumer.
I should not say but I
do have to :"STUPIDO" like Italiens may say.

with regards

trendland · May 14, 2017

trendland said:
Are you realy shure that Ilford Pan100
And Ilford Pan400 is not exact the same
as Kentmere100/400 we know as cheap film sunce 2009 ?
I am not speaking about traditional brands wich were in use somewere in the
very past. I am speaking aboud the films
you can buy at THIS time.

Perhaps you may doubt - indeed or you missunderstand me a little bit?

Coming to next problem with todays bw stuff - you gave a good example therefore : Changing the emulsion while selling the same film - with same name.

You should regard the brand name in concern to date of selling and you should
find out what emulsion it is actual.
No worry with TMY or Delta 100 - but
exact Kentmere is a clasic schoolbook
exmple to this method.

THE reason for this practice ?

The economical risk to establish a NEW
emulsion is today an incalculable issue to manufacturer.

Just look on a next brand new emulsion:
Firma Retropan 320.

If you realy thing : Whow a new film phantastic - you are naive.

Why? Foma is in a bad situation like Ilford some times in the past.

They have First to surwive the next 3 years - hope they will.
And they have not the finacial resources
to start improvments and production of a new film.They are not in the near of this.

So what is this Retro Style film?

It should be from a old Retro Master Roll.

At least look to the desaster of Ferrania
film - they have to sell trash (P30) because they whant to suvive the next
3 weeks!

And their marketing make an special offer (from selling trash ) and many
payed $12,50 to one 135 roll.
Now it is sold out.
From the perspective of Business Methods these guys in Italy are clever and just ok.
Smart Management from the perspective
to consumer.
I should not say but I
do have to :"STUPIDO" like Italiens may say.

with regards

I have to corect some wrong translations
Sorry for that - I tipped it corect (sometimes of cause not ) but my smartphone is 500% more dyslexic than
I could ever be total drunk.
It changes ever second word into others.
I've to kill it.

Well -"Smart Management" is clear now.
THE Italians.

From the perspective to consumer - I should not say this, but I have to do so :

" STUPIDO " as the Italien would say.

with regards

trendland · May 14, 2017

AgX said:
Maybe. But If I had been in Harman's position, already offering two ranges of films, I would for the the more economical one not use different films.

Yes Agx I could imagine this.
Sometimes it is more economical to rate
a part of the same film as B-Quality with
other brand - than start a second production line.
Just to produce "Bad Quality per Advice"
( B.Q.A.) - only in wartime as a form of
resistence.

with regards

trendland · May 14, 2017

Ricardo Miranda said:
You are so misguided.

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)
Ilford PAN films are older and were introduced in the late 90s, ealy 2000s in some markets like some Asian and Eastern European countries where the Ilford brand hasn't the prestige that is attached to them as it is in the Western markets.
They are different from the other Ilford or Kentmere films.

You are right to a half but notice the First
Ilfordpan may be out of others stuff as the latest - see my statement to this concerns above pls.

with regards

Ricardo Miranda · May 14, 2017

Ilford Pan and the Kentmere films are different.

https://assocourantdart.fr/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Ilford-film-pan100400.pdf

http://www.kentmere.co.uk/Webfiles/20091291714152280.pdf

Above are the datasheets for Kentmere 400 and the combined datasheet for PAN 100 and 400. Development times are different comparing the 2 ISO 400 films, plus Ilford has given the times for push processing PAN 400 to EI 3200 while Kentmere is only to EI 800.
If they were the same films, they would have the same times as these times are appropriate to achieve the same contrast level.

RalphLambrecht · May 15, 2017

Ricardo Miranda said:
Yes and to be precise, there's no film made by Kentmere.
It is Harman.

Why not just sell as what it actually is?
It is just the same old American arrogance.
They want to make everything as their own.

Strikes me as hypocritical when Brits talk about American arrogance! The sun never set on....

Ricardo Miranda · May 15, 2017

RalphLambrecht said:
Strikes me as hypocritical when Brits talk about American arrogance! The sun never set on....

Well, I have news for you: I'm not British.

removed account4 · May 15, 2017

Ricardo Miranda said:
Yes, that is right.
But, it normally is done with the manufacturer's knowledge or consent.
And normally it doesn't involve just putting your stickers over the packaging.

that is what got wal*mart in trouble a bunch of years ago. they had a "sticker" operation
where they had a crew / crews of people carefully putting " MADE IN USA " stickers on all their products
OVER the "MADE IN MEXICO" stickers, and it was all fine and dandy until the stickers started peeling off,
and they kind of got in trouble for their claims that everything they sold was made in the USA. maybe
if they put "MADE IN NORTH AMERICA" instead of USA they could have gotten away with it, seeing mexico is part of
the "NORTH AMERICA" ...

railwayman3 said:
It's all a bit like cornflakes ! I can buy full-price Kelloggs Cornflakes from my local store, I know that will be always available on the shelf, and they they'll be, and taste, exactly the same as they have since I was a kid. Or I can buy own-brand Cornflakes from the local Lidl or Aldi store.....much cheaper, and slightly different in taste and texture, but a perfectly good breakfast. No idea who actually makes them, might be Kelloggs, might not, IDK, doesn't really matter.....

+1

Old_Dick · May 15, 2017

jnanian

41 countries in North America. Mexico is one of them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_North_American_countries_by_population

removed account4 · May 15, 2017

Old_Dick said:
jnanian

41 countries in North America. Mexico is one of them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_North_American_countries_by_population

thanks ! i should have consulted "the wiki" ...
i was always under the wrong-impression that the greater + lesser antilles
and the rest of the islands in the caribbean sea and southern america+its countries
that connect to south america were not all part of north but central america !

thanks old dick, i appreciate the link and information ! ( and have edited my previous response )

john

Agulliver · May 18, 2017

I've used Ilford Pan 400 and Kentmere 400.

They are not the same. Development times for ID-11 are different, and shot at box speed the Pan 400 negatives look a little denser and have bigger grain than Kentmere. Both do a good job at box speed, but both look different. I prefer Kentmere at box speed. However on pushing, Kentmere negs become very dense and one cannot push it beyond 640 or perhaps 800 and still get decent results. Pan 400 can be pushed to 800 no problem at all, and just about to 1600.

They are not the same film. Yes, Harman really do produce different emulsions for different named products.

Case closed.

bedrof · Mar 1, 2019

Agulliver said:
I've used Ilford Pan 400 and Kentmere 400.

However on pushing, Kentmere negs become very dense and one cannot push it beyond 640 or perhaps 800 and still get decent results. Pan 400 can be pushed to 800 no problem at all, and just about to 1600.

I have to say, that I exposed and developed Agfaphoto APX 400 (which is believed to be the same emulsion as Kentmere 400) at EI 1600. Got nice printable result in Microphen stock.

Agulliver · Mar 1, 2019

You might get better results pushing Kentmere in Microphen....but it doesn't erase the likelihood that Kentmere and Ilford Pan are different films. Harman themselves say they are different.

bedrof · Mar 1, 2019

I didn't say Kentmere 400 and Ilford Pan 400 are the same, just commented on new APX 400 (possibly Kentmere 400) being pushed N+2.

Wallendo · Mar 1, 2019

With Hartman and its multiple brands and contracted coatings, I wonder how different a film has to be to be a different film.

I doubt there is an absolute definition.

Luckless · Mar 1, 2019

Wallendo said:
With Hartman and its multiple brands and contracted coatings, I wonder how different a film has to be to be a different film.

I doubt there is an absolute definition.

Given how different the functional characteristics of an emulsion can be just by changing the drops-per-minute rate at which same chemicals are combined during mixing, I can't imagine it being all that much of a difference before they could call something a different film [while remaining completely honest].

trendland · Mar 1, 2019

bedrof said:
I didn't say Kentmere 400 and Ilford Pan 400 are the same, just commented on new APX 400 (possibly Kentmere 400) being pushed N+2.

Right said bedrof APX400/Kentmere400 (there is no further cheap derivat avaible at this moment)
The next question will be : what are you buying in 1 1/4 years when you order next APX400? So what will be inside your APX box then?

This here :

with regards

PS : A lttle joke - same film (Kentmere)!!

trendland · Mar 1, 2019

Wallendo said:
With Hartman and its multiple brands and contracted coatings, I wonder how different a film has to be to be a different film.

I doubt there is an absolute definition.

The definition is quite clear Wallendo :

If the same film is offered by manufacturer or by retailer with different names : It stays as it is - the same film!

with regards

AgX · Mar 2, 2019

Wallendo said:
With Hartman and its multiple brands and contracted coatings, I wonder how different a film has to be to be a different film.

I doubt there is an absolute definition.

Also the question arises when it becomes economical to make different emulsions/coatings.

New film from Harman?

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