New BW Paper From Agfa-Gevaert

Bob Carnie · Mar 14, 2008

I once met the VP of the photographic film and paper division at my small shop late 90s. At that time I was making platinum prints for select clients.
He did not know what a platinum print was,,, at that moment I concluded the tour thinking that Agfa was in for a bit of trouble down the line.
Same type of thing happened a few years back, the last technical sales rep I saw at our shop, did not have any photographic training.
I know Mirko and Simon and the boys at Harmon love photography passionately so I think they all will make wise decisions.. 80% of the time.
And not base all their decisions on some bottom line.

goldie said:
From what I've heard the Agfa Photo company was some kind of basket case & thus went into liquidation. It's possible that sales of B&W paper were OK but more fundamental problems brought the company undone.

Steve Roberts · Mar 14, 2008

Ian Grant said:
Rapidoprint was a Rapid Access resin coated paper, it was originally designed for the activator stabiliser process and needed no developer, as the paper was developer incorporated. The last time I used this paper was about 1973/74 it gave very good prints developing in seconds in any developer
Ian

Ian,
You've lost me here - you say that it "needed no developer", but that it "gave very good prints in seconds in any developer". Up until the "no developer" phrase I took it that perhaps it just needed immersing in water (or something). I'm sure I'm missing the point here somewhere and would be pleased to be put straight!
Cheers,
Steve

ADOX Fotoimpex · Mar 14, 2008

Agfa Areal surveillance paper

I cannot comment much on the timing, content and intention of this "news release".

But I think first of all we need to understand that this release was not made by Agfa Gevaert.

It would be hard to understand why a company is announcing it as news that they have been selling MCP in a different packing to their areal customers ever since, still are doing so and that they are undertaking steps to secure the future supply of this range.

We (ADOX and the Agfa engineers we work together with in this project - InovisCoat) never saw a problem in supplying Agfa with readymade MCP emulsion to coat their Rapitone paper.

By no means will this have impact on our MCC project.

InovisCoat will take their new coating line and larger emulsion making equipment in operation within this year. This brings our coating efficiency up by much.
We will make perfectly sized lots for an ongoing production in the consumer market. The papers will be made available to the market in ADOX MCP and ADOX MCC branding.

Anyone interested in our products is very much welcome to buy them from his dealer. Dealers are welcome to contact us (in the US Freestyle) and we will offer the paper (once it is available) with a dealer discount and at a fair end user price.

Best regards,

Mirko

ADOX Fotoimpex · Mar 14, 2008

Steve,

the Rapidoprint paper had so much developing substances incorporated that you didn´t actually need a developer. In Rapid access a strong alkaline solution is enough to develop the paper within seconds.

However you may as well use a standard developer. Depending on it´s PH value the process takes longer or shorter.

Best regards,

Mirko

Ian Grant · Mar 14, 2008

Steve as Mirko says the developer was in the paper, early Ilford Ilfospeed was the same but with not quite as much developer.

These papers were put through a roller processing machine, and the activator developed the paper in seconds, then they were stabilised in a Thiocyanate solution, they faded over a few weeks or months but could be fixed for normal permanence. The Activators were normally based around Sodium or Potassium Hydroxide with Sodium Sulphite and Potassium bromide to stop fogging and keep the highlights clean.

Even in a standard print developer the old Rapidoprint paper was fully developed in a few seconds, it's 35 years since I last used it but I'm sure no mre than 15 seconds. I used Ilfospeed in an Ilford Activator/Stabiliser machine for quite a few years, with a home-made activator and Hypam at 1+2, instead of stabiliser, then I fixed again in Hypam at 1+9.

Ian

AgX · Mar 14, 2008

The confusion goes on:

ADOX Fotoimpex said:
We (ADOX and the Agfa engineers we work together with in this project - InovisCoat) never saw a problem in supplying Agfa with readymade MCP emulsion to coat their Rapitone paper.

Thus Fotoimpex delivered/delivers an emulsion to Agfa??

GeorgK · Mar 14, 2008

Best we all give a sh(ee)t on all announcements, and dates, and promised future qualities and availabilities, and predicted prices, and simply buy at the moment what we need at the moment and what the market offers at the moment.
For myself, I have completely lost any interest in this topic.

Regards
Georg

ADOX Fotoimpex · Mar 15, 2008

The confusion goes on

Let me put it in different words (but I have said this already over a year ago in a previous thread):
If you want to recreate a paper with identical characteristics to MCC and MCP you need to have the Know How (People) and the identical machinery.
And when I say identical I mean 100% identical. Down to the milimeter.
If you have only one of the two you will not succeed.
You will be able to make a paper (and perhaps a very fine one) but it will not be the same. Very probably not even close unless you are willing to completely recreate it from scratch. But this would be very unlikely to happen.
Only the group ADOX/InovisCoat has these necessary two requirements.
No one else in the world. Thus only we can recreate emulsions with identical properties. And yes, InovisCoat (with ADOX and InovisCoat as beeing afiliated partners in this) has transported emulsions made in Leverkusen (actually in the old Agfa building where the machines are still running) to Agfa Gevaert for the coating of photopaper.
It is the reason why we were hoping to come out with the MCP before InovisCoat´s new big coating line is under power.
I also mentioned this before several times. It´s the reason why we bring the MCP before the MCC even though everyone wants the MCC over the MCP.
Coating for fibre paper was not available, unfortunately.

Fotoimpex is a trading company only. I personally own two companies. Fotoimpex in Berlin and ADOX Fotowerke (i.G. = beeing founded) in Bad Saarow.
So no, Fotoimpex has not shipped any emulsion (other than our ADOLUX liquid emulsion) anywhere.
Just to be 1000% exact ;-)

Does this answer your question ?

Best regards,

Mirko

Ian Grant · Mar 15, 2008

Thanks Mirko, like Simon Galley from Ilford you have been very straight and honest in releasing accurate information on your products and plans.

Really comments like

GeorgK said:
For myself, I have completely lost any interest in this topic.

are most unhelpful.

Many of us used Agfa MCC in preference to all other papers, it's not better and not worse than it's competitors it just has its own unique qualities and with it's demise and the loss of Polywarmtone as well there's now a definite gap in the market.

So we should be thanking and supporting you for all your efforts to bring these papers, and hopefully films back to the market place.

Ian

Aurelien · Mar 15, 2008

Who is InovisCoat? What machinery do they use? Are they using the Agfa Leverkusen Machinery?

Michel Hardy-Vallée · Mar 15, 2008

Mirko, am I right to understand the following?

* ADOX & friends will produce authentic MCP, and eventually MCC
* Agfa-Gevaert will sell to the general public an MCP-lookalike, which is a product they have been making for a while for specialized customers.

I'm still confused, sorry.

Photo Engineer · Mar 15, 2008

Mirko;

You have stated what I have said before and I agree 100%. You cannot recreate something without the know how and equipment that made the original. This is why buidling a new plant from scratch with new people and all will be such a chore.

Thanks for an excellent statement from the viewpoint of someone trying hard to re-create the past and to forge ahead into the future. I wish you the best in your work.

PE

PHOTOTONE · Mar 15, 2008

mhv said:
Mirko, am I right to understand the following?

* ADOX & friends will produce authentic MCP, and eventually MCC
* Agfa-Gevaert will sell to the general public an MCP-lookalike, which is a product they have been making for a while for specialized customers.

I'm still confused, sorry.

I'll bet its more like -Agfa-Gevaert is making an MCP type paper which has now become available to others to market for general purpose consumer use, as well as Agfa-Gevaert will continue to market it to its specialty markets-

As a side note, totally independent of Agfa Leverkusen, Gevaert (in Belgium) was a world class maker of photo films, plates and papers long before they acquired Agfa Leverkusen. I wonder why they don't consider some of the unique papers they used to make prior to the acquisition of Agfa??

Bob Carnie · Mar 16, 2008

Since this is a thread about product availability..
I have one simple question..

Is there a vendor *worldwide* that can sell me a roll of Agfa Fibre Base paper, in 30inch x 100ft roll size? or can someone point me in the right direction for me to follow up with?

ADOX Fotoimpex · Mar 17, 2008

Gevaert (in Belgium) was a world class maker of photo films, plates and papers long before they acquired Agfa Leverkusen

Not that it really matters here, but Agfa took over Gevaert in 1964 and the Agfa-Gevaert group was founded (not the other way around).
1981 Bayer (Leverkusen) bought the group.
1999 Bayer spun the group out into an individual company and listed it on the stock exchange. Now Belgium became the headquarter and Leverkusen was a sub Division.
2004 Leverkusen was sold by the belgish Agfa to an investors group and became Agfa Photo whereas Belgium was called Agfa only (and still is).

The rest is to sad to be mentioned all over again....

Best regards,

Mirko

Steve Roberts · Mar 17, 2008

Ian and Mirko,
Thanks very much for your explanations.
All is now clear!
Best wishes,
Steve

AgX · Mar 17, 2008

ADOX Fotoimpex said:
Not that it really matters here, but Agfa took over Gevaert in 1964 and the Agfa-Gevaert group was founded (not the other way around).

Not that it really matters here, but you are wrong:
Agfa did NOT take over Gevaert, but both companies merged.

See also:
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Ian Grant · Mar 18, 2008

AgX said:
Not that it really matters here, but you are wrong:
Agfa did NOT take over Gevaert, but both companies merged.

When two companies "merge" that usually indicates that one company has bought a majority stock-holding in the other, effectively taking them over.

Because Agfa & Gevaert were based in different countries they remained separate companies, although part of the same trading group, which is why we see the situation today. Had both been in Germany things would have been very different.

Ian

AgX · Mar 18, 2008

Ian,

In that thread I referred to a stock exchange between the new formed companies.
Furthermore in internal talks between Agfa managers themselves in that year even there was explicitely spoken of fusion and not of take-over.

ath · Mar 18, 2008

Merge? Like Daimler and Chrysler?

Film Enthusiast · Mar 25, 2008

Hi all,

Ive done further research to look at the facts behind all these marketing announcements concerning new Agfa or Adox MCP. Ive good connections to the photo industry and talked to some well informed persons in Belgium, France and Germany. These are the facts:

1. Agfa Rapidoprint and Adox MCP are only two sides of the same medal. In both cases the emulsions are made by Inoviscoat, who sell their product to Agfa-Gevaert and Fotoimpex/Adox. For Adox they will make the complete product, emulsion and coating.
2. The resurrection of the MCC/MCP emulsion was started by Inoviscoat, a start up company founded by former engineers of Agfa Leverkusen. It was their idea, not the idea of Fotoimpex/Adox.
3. Inoviscoat was looking for a powerful partner in distribution, because they have no own distribution capacities. They had first negotiations with other partners, but these rejected the distribution because Inoviscoat could only coat paper in 108 cm width. But great laboratories need 127 cm or 142 cm rolls. And thats a very important market. Then Inoviscoat talked to Fotoimpex as second choice.
4. Inoviscoat is working for several companies, not exclusively for Fotoimpex/Adox. Inoviscoat is working for Agfa-Gevaert, too. That is absolutely necessary, because the production quantities for the Adox order are not big enough for the company to survive. The production quantities for Agfa-Gevaert are much higher then the ones for Adox.
5. The business model of Adox is re-labelling. As Adox has officially said several times, all production steps of the Adox MCP will be made by partners. Production of the paper by Inoviscoat, packing by another specialist.

So, I think the situation is good so far. For the companies and for us consumers. There are no rivalling projects, there is primarily one project, the new production of MCP by Inoviscoat. They sell the greater part of their production to Agfa-Gevaert, the smaller one to Adox, and both are profiting from economies of scale. This make sense. In the end, it doesnt matter whether you buy Agfa Rapidoprint or Adox MCP. It will be the same quality.

Regards,
Michael

GeorgK · Mar 26, 2008

Michael,
are you sure that Innoviscoat ist coating paper for Agfa-Gevaert? As A-G has its own coating facilities, it would be strange to outsource the coating.
It is clear now, that Innoviscoat holds the rights for the Multicontrast emulsion (after the demise of AgfaPhoto), and delivered it to A-G for their "Rapitone" VC paper; but A-G introduced a new generation of this paper last october "with comparable photographic and physical properties". I guess A-G stopped using the Multicontrast emulsion and is now relying on their own formula.

Regards
Georg

Film Enthusiast · Mar 26, 2008

GeorgK said:
Michael,
are you sure that Innoviscoat ist coating paper for Agfa-Gevaert? As A-G has its own coating facilities, it would be strange to outsource the coating.

Regards
Georg

Hi Georg,

I have written it under "1" in my posting: Inoviscoat makes the emulsion (MCP) for Agfa-Gevaert for the Rapidoprint paper. Agfa is coating by themselves. Yes, they have very modern own coating facilities, top of the range.

Regards,
Michael

New BW Paper From Agfa-Gevaert

Bob Carnie

Steve Roberts

ADOX Fotoimpex

Partner

ADOX Fotoimpex

Partner

Ian Grant

AgX

GeorgK

ADOX Fotoimpex

Partner

Ian Grant

Aurelien

Advertiser

Michel Hardy-Vallée

Membership Council

Photo Engineer

PHOTOTONE

Bob Carnie

ADOX Fotoimpex

Partner

Steve Roberts

AgX

Ian Grant

AgX

ath

Film Enthusiast

GeorgK

Film Enthusiast

New BW Paper From Agfa-Gevaert

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