New black and white fibre-based papers from Ilford

MattKing · Dec 25, 2013

Richard Jepsen said:
With the short image formation time the paper emulsion must have incorporated a developer. Graded will have a longer shelf life.

I am fairly confident that Ilford would have avoided incorporating developer into a new paper - the shelf life concerns in this time of modern marketing realities argue against it.

Shall we ask Simon?

He will probably be busy for a couple of days - Christmas and Boxing Day and all that - but I expect we will hear.

Rafal Lukawiecki · Dec 25, 2013

Michael R 1974 said:
My initial trials have been with a VCCE head but next I want to do a full set of comparisons using Ilford MG filters because I think in my setup the VCCE filtration might be distorting relative contrast levels.

Michael, have you noticed a significant change in speed when using your VCCE head on higher grades with the new papers? If it had been calibrated for the former Ilford papers, I suppose the new (higher) speeds at higher grades might take the "CE" aspect out of VCCE.

brian steinberger · Dec 25, 2013

Michael R 1974 said:
As far as selenium toning goes, indeed the new paper exhibits a greater change in colour than MGIV. Not so much with high dilutions, but at 1+10 or stronger it is significant.

Please elaborate Michael.

Roger Cole · Dec 26, 2013

I wonder if the new Classic emulsion will be offered in RC, and the RC Cooltone expanded to larger sizes? Currently I only make contact sheets and the occasional 8x10 of a snapshot on RC but the difficulties of handling wet 16x20 FB would have me considering RC if I were to expand my darkroom printing capabilities to 20x24.

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DREW WILEY · Dec 26, 2013

MGIV was good predictable stuff in a Ford/Chevy sense. It could reliably get you from point A to point B, but not luxuriously. Fairly immune to toners. By contrast, and with a bit of a learning curve, Kentmere Fineprint could be turned into a fairly flashy hot rod. And then there's MGWT ... a Lamborghini or Ferrari, just so you don't demand something on the genuinely cool side. So I'm just sitting here salivating, drooling... waiting
for the Cooltone to arrive. And I'll certainly try the Classic after that. My amidol and gold chloride are just waiting to pounce.

Roger Cole · Dec 26, 2013

Everyone talks about how resistant MGIV is to toning but I found I had to stop at 4 minutes in KRST 1+19 as it becomes too purple at 5 minutes (granted this was in summer when my ambient solutions are around 75F) as compared to MCC 110 which cools slightly to neutral after 5 minutes but is much more resistant to selenium and only goes purple with prolonged toning. Others say MCC 110 doesn't respond at all though and I definitely see a response, clear when wet but more subtle after drying of course. I just hope the Classic doesn't tone TOO easily for me as I seem pretty sensitive to changes in print color.

My neutral papers are developed, so far anyway, in LPD so that could be a source of the differences if most folks are using Dektol or similar.

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RalphLambrecht · Dec 26, 2013

Thomas Bertilsson said:
I'll be getting into cool tone FB as soon as I burn through my stash of regular FB, which will take a while... Available in matt surface too! Yes! I am going to relish this.

I think this is great and good news from Ilford.However, I get all I want from MGIVand have no need to increase darkroom complexity. thanks Ilford butdon't eliminate existing products because of it!

Roger Cole · Dec 26, 2013

Michael R 1974 said:
Roger, I can't really agree or disagree with what you're saying about MGIV. I tend to be very sensitive to small differences and I see changes in MGIV as it tones, but I never saw it go as purple as other papers I've used like Oriental or even Polymax FB. But there are variables so who knows. It does seem the developer can make a difference so maybe LPD/MGIV is a combo that goes purple. On the other hand the perceived change could depend on what initial colour the paper takes on. So for example maybe the colour of MGIV straight out of LPD is such that as it tones it looks more purple relative to where it started. I don't know. In any case I certainly have more work to do.

Or maybe I'm just used to MCC 110 and only in comparison does MGIV go purple! MCC 110 has been my standard neutral paper for a while and it definitely resists selenium though it does respond some.

In any case, thanks for the advance work on Classic and I'm looking forward to trying both the new papers.

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RalphLambrecht · Dec 27, 2013

Michael R 1974 said:
Ralph, I agree. I switched to MGIV after Polymax FA went away and it's everything I need. But I'm sure I will love MG Classic once I get to know it better. MGIV is being discontinued.

diccontinuing MGIVwill be a serious mistake Ilford You gonna loose me. Don't do it!

JW PHOTO · Dec 27, 2013

RalphLambrecht said:
diccontinuing MGIVwill be a serious mistake Ilford You gonna loose me. Don't do it!

Ralph,
This might just be better? I know how you feel and get a little apprehensive about a move like this myself. Remember the classic coke escapade? Coke took it off the market because they had a better "New Coke". Well, the rest is history and we got our "Classic Coke" back. New is not always better! We'll see I guess. Meanwhile, you better stock up Ralph. JohnW

DREW WILEY · Dec 27, 2013

Ralph - they're got two new papers coming out, so what's to lose? Things change. I recently lost two favorite papers (Polygrade V and Fineprint VCFB), but that just created a conspicuous vacuum which Ilford in conveniently filling. I find it hard to believe that one or the other of these new papers won't do everything that MGIV did, and probably do it even better. I had to revert to MGIV for a recent project, and had to be very picky about which negs would ideally match it. I haven't used that paper in many years, but it took me only minutes to know what to do. And I figure the learning curve with these new papers will go just as smoothly. New papers equal new opportunities. Negs which gave me hell way back when became a piece of cake when MGWT came out, and now I anticipate similar results from a cool tone version. But I doubt the new products will simply be "Classic" in the sense of a marketing ruse, like Coca Cola. I'm looking forward to exactly the improvement they describe. Nothing is permanent in this game except change anyway.

JW PHOTO · Dec 27, 2013

DREW WILEY said:
Ralph - they're got two new papers coming out, so what's to lose? Things change. I recently lost two favorite papers (Polygrade V and Fineprint VCFB), but that just created a conspicuous vacuum which Ilford in conveniently filling. I find it hard to believe that one or the other of these new papers won't do everything that MGIV did, and probably do it even better. I had to revert to MGIV for a recent project, and had to be very picky about which negs would ideally match it. I haven't used that paper in many years, but it took me only minutes to know what to do. And I figure the learning curve with these new papers will go just as smoothly. New papers equal new opportunities. Negs which gave me hell way back when became a piece of cake when MGWT came out, and now I anticipate similar results from a cool tone version. But I doubt the new products will simply be "Classic" in the sense of a marketing ruse, like Coca Cola. I'm looking forward to exactly the improvement they describe. Nothing is permanent in this game except change anyway.

Drew,
Coca~Cola was a gimmick/promotion right from the start, but it sure pissed a ton of people off. I think Ilford has thought this out and did enough R&D that we can rest assured the final product will at least be as good, if not better than the old paper. I'll watch and see what others think. JohnW

DREW WILEY · Dec 27, 2013

And I'm obviously just speculating at this point too, since I'm still waiting for my boxes of new paper. But Ilford is a class act, and I really doubt
they're running on a bluff, and am ordering large boxes of paper right from the word go. Of course, I'll fiddle with this developer and that, and
experiment with different toning regimens, just like with any unfamiliar paper... and just like having fun during any other darkroom session. So I have no reason to suspect any kind of gimmick. Some of their products I like more than others, but I can't think of a single one of them I'd call substandard. And so far, this sounds just like what the doctor ordered.

Black Dog · Dec 27, 2013

+1 on that....will try some for the next postcard exchange, though Galerie remains my favourite Ilford paper at the moment.

DREW WILEY · Dec 27, 2013

I came to the practical conclusion, along with numerous others, that the presence of a wash aid in selenium toner is utterly redundant, and if it weren't for Ansel's personal tradition with respect to it, would have been a custom abandoned long ago. There are probably some past threads
explaining this. Plain water works just fine and seems to produce identical results at comparable dilution.

DREW WILEY · Dec 27, 2013

I use various toners, including selenium and gold, to fine-tune image density and color. I get pretty nitpicky about that, though I never lean on
toning heavily in an artsy-craftsy sense. Less is more. Archival properties are an added benefit, I guess. But my shpmt of the new paper just arrived, so the next time you hear from me, after the holidays, I might actually know what I'm talking about!

VaryaV · Dec 27, 2013

Michael R 1974 said:
Drew, I might even take it a (dangerous) step further and wonder how many people would even use selenium at all if Adams hadn't

+1

Rafal Lukawiecki · Dec 27, 2013

Michael R 1974 said:
Drew, I might even take it a (dangerous) step further and wonder how many people would even use selenium at all if Adams hadn't

Come, come, Michael. The DMax and colour after Se is enchanting enough to be noticeable to most. I'm sure it'd have been popular either way.

Roger Cole · Dec 27, 2013

Rafal Lukawiecki said:
Come, come, Michael. The DMax and colour after Se is enchanting enough to be noticeable to most. I'm sure it'd have been popular either way.

+1. Once you see a print after even light selenium toning you will ever after notice (and almost certainly dislike) the faint olive tinge of most papers. Virtually every finished print I make is now toned, either se or brown, to at least a small extent.

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zsas · Dec 27, 2013

R.Gould said:
This is very good news indeed, shows that Harman have confidence in the future of silver printing, and according to the newsletter I have just recieved from Silverprint the prices of both new papers are the same as the MGIVFB paper, both the Cooltone and classic paper is the same, which is even better news

Couldn't have said it better! Looking forward to try some out! Thanks Ilford for continued innovation

Mike Crawford · Dec 28, 2013

I've noticed several comments on this thread and others that MGIV is/was not so good for toning. Even heard Ilford suggest the same in comparison to the new Classic. Really don't see this myself. I've always found it to be one of the most versatile papers in thio with a colour range from purple, chocolate brown to very warm yellow brown and everything in between. I always use a bleach stronger than I would use on most papers but the level of variable bleaching is very pliable and can really give a good split with the un-bleached shadows appearing cold in comparison to the toned highlights. Especially with the Matt surface which comes to life in thio. (Gold after thio takes the colour range to another level!) Likewise with selenium; while it doesn't shift to a reddish purple, it certainly does change to colder and more purple blacks. As long as the Classic will work in similar terms, I'll be happy.

Thinking about it, I did take part in initial field tests of Classic a while back, though didn't know what it was then, and it seemed very good but will have to wait till I try the latest, released version to get an opinion. Looking forward to doing more with the Cooltone soon though.

Bob Carnie · Dec 28, 2013

Plus 1 , I love MG4 matt or gloss when toned. no complaints whatsoever, my complete project of solarized images are printed on Mg4 matt.

QUOTE=Mike Crawford;1588169]I've noticed several comments on this thread and others that MGIV is/was not so good for toning. Even heard Ilford suggest the same in comparison to the new Classic. Really don't see this myself. I've always found it to be one of the most versatile papers in thio with a colour range from purple, chocolate brown to very warm yellow brown and everything in between. I always use a bleach stronger than I would use on most papers but the level of variable bleaching is very pliable and can really give a good split with the un-bleached shadows appearing cold in comparison to the toned highlights. Especially with the Matt surface which comes to life in thio. (Gold after thio takes the colour range to another level!) Likewise with selenium; while it doesn't shift to a reddish purple, it certainly does change to colder and more purple blacks. As long as the Classic will work in similar terms, I'll be happy.

Thinking about it, I did take part in initial field tests of Classic a while back, though didn't know what it was then, and it seemed very good but will have to wait till I try the latest, released version to get an opinion. Looking forward to doing more with the Cooltone soon though.[/QUOTE]

Oren Grad · Dec 28, 2013

Roger Cole said:
I wonder if the new Classic emulsion will be offered in RC, and the RC Cooltone expanded to larger sizes?

MGRCCT used to be available in larger sizes - I still have some 16x20 glossy on hand - but Harman cut back because of lack of demand. Perhaps the arrival of MGFBCT will lead to renewed demand for larger sizes of the RC as well - I'd like to see them bring back at least 16x20 in glossy surface.

Roger Cole · Dec 28, 2013

I'd like 16x20 pearl. I dislike RC glossy except for contact sheets but find pearl the closest to a FB glossy-dried-matte as we used to call it (to distinguish from ferrotyped FB glossy.)

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Tony Egan · Dec 29, 2013

Roger Cole said:
+1. Once you see a print after even light selenium toning you will ever after notice (and almost certainly dislike) the faint olive tinge of most papers. Virtually every finished print I make is now toned, either se or brown, to at least a small extent.
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+2

New black and white fibre-based papers from Ilford

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