New black and white fibre-based papers from Ilford

mexipike · Dec 22, 2013

Well despite what I said about Freestyle's prices I happened to be in my local store (Precision Camera, Austin, TX) and bought a 100 sheet box paying more than Freestyle. Couldn't resist. They had the glossy and matte Ilford Classic in stock but they didn't have to Cool Tone yet.

I'm heading to the darkroom now to check it out!

brian steinberger · Dec 22, 2013

Anyone try either of these papers yet?? I got mine but will not have the chance to try them until after the holidays.

VaryaV · Dec 22, 2013

brian steinberger said:
Anyone try either of these papers yet?? I got mine but will not have the chance to try them until after the holidays.

Hi Brian -

I gave the Coldtone a first spin last night with the Edwal. It's a lovely paper and the Edwal is indeed gorgeous and gives a VERY cold black with it. I prefer more of a curve in the midtones than a straight line so the Coldtone in Meritol I liked better for my own purposes. The Edwal blew the highlights out a little more than I prefer. (but I don't like bright whites anyway- it's just personal taste). The Meritol was perfect for me so I will probably use that with it. I just shot a roll of HP5+ for the MSA and will be using that and hopefully get more of a feel for it. I will let more of the technically minded folks speak up when they test as. I think it would produce mind-blowing results for street stuff.

All-in-all I think folks will turn out some fantastic stuff with it. I have never used Coldtone papers before, only neutral, so there is definitely going to be a learning curve for me and something I will have to spend some more time getting used to. I haven't toned with anything other than selenium with it and will hope to achieve more in the purple range.

Can't wait to see what folks will be doing with it.

mexipike · Dec 22, 2013

I made one print on the Classic FB and found it excellent. I'll try and get a scan of something up in the next couple of days. I toned in kodak rapid selenium 1:10 for about four minutes and didn't notice a huge color shift but it did make for nicer blacks.

The shot I was printing was pushed hp5 and thus quite grainy but I found the grain to seem sharper than MGIV.

PeterB · Dec 23, 2013

Simon R Galley said:
and I know it sounds daft but they really do look sharper ( and they are )

Is it sharper by design ? What changed (at a general level without giving any protected IP away) ? Alternatively what characteristics of a VC paper improve its sharpness ?

I've been striving for sharp prints by optimising every variable I can think of yet I never realised the paper played a potentially important role !

Simon R Galley · Dec 23, 2013

Yes, it is 'sharper' by design. Its a new type of emulsion.

Simon. ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology LImited :

PeterB · Dec 23, 2013

Simon R Galley said:
Yes, it is 'sharper' by design. Its a new type of emulsion.

Thanks Simon. I'm looking forward to trying some out.

Mike Crawford · Dec 23, 2013

Had an opportunity to try out the Cooltone FB, for a show on at Silverprint in London. Think I'm going to like it. Very white base and cold black tone in PQ. As I'm still missing the Forte cold paper and now Adox Vario Classic, I wanted it much, much colder. Tried it in Moersch SE6 and got the cold blue black I was after. The addition of Moersch Finisher Blue made it colder though exposure times were then increased. (Expect it is Benzotriazole.) Selenium toner at 1+20 then made it even colder at 3 minutes. Longer times started to change the colour a bit more towards purple I think though didn't keep the tests so can't remember exactly.

Relatively quick printing times and good range of tones and very good shadow detail. A quick test I did over-exposing and under-processing, as I am wont to do, to get a soft tonal range, seemed to work on an initial test but didn't pursue as only had 10 sheets to test. Haven't tried the MG Classic yet but think the Cooltone is going to be an important addition to our palette. With a choice of developers, think the depth of cool tone should be very pliable. Look forward to hearing what others think.

Rafal Lukawiecki · Dec 23, 2013

Mike Crawford said:
The addition of Moersch Finisher Blue made it colder though exposure times were then increased. (Expect it is Benzotriazole.)

Indeed, Finisher Blue seems to be Benzotriazole plus a touch of 1-Phenyl-5-Mercaptotetrazole (PMT, PMTA), both cold-working organic antifoggants. MSDS: http://www.moersch-photochemie.de/files/articles/Finisher Blue.pdf. As an aside, I wonder how the PMTA stays active without having to be replenished throughout a printing session.

VaryaV · Dec 24, 2013

Second printing session trying out the new Coldtone and all I can say is Wow.... WOW! Took some getting used to and adjusting my eye to it, and getting a feel for it's properties. Went back to the Edwal and the results are spectacular, I have to say I was a bit aghast even. I think folks are going to love the stuff. My only regret is not getting the 100pk. Won't give me enough leeway for all my negs. Burned through 1/2 of a box of 25 learning how to adjust exposure. A lot different process then how I work with warmtone. Working on prints for the MSA will be posting my shots within a few days.

I'm not even going to try to tone it yet, I like the results of the straight print so much. I'll get to that over time. I can't wait to see what great stuff people are going to turn out with it.

Really, thanks so much to Ilford for offering a new product, it is lovely paper and new emulsion.

Sal Santamaura · Dec 24, 2013

pstake said:
Here is a link to Tim Rudman's newsletter and review of these two papers:

http://www.timrudman.com/newsletters/view/end-of-year-newsletter-2013

Sal Santamaura said:
In which he reports:

"MG Cooltone...The air dried glossy surface is significantly more shiny than that of Classic , IV or WT."

Disappointing...

VaryaV said:
Second printing session trying out the new Coldtone...A lot different process then how I work with warmtone...

Since you've now used both Cooltone FB and Warmtone FB, would you please tell us how the smoothness and gloss of their surfaces compare? Thanks in advance.

VaryaV · Dec 24, 2013

Sal Santamaura said:
Since you've now used both Cooltone FB and Warmtone FB, would you please tell us how the smoothness and gloss of their surfaces compare? Thanks in advance.

Hi Sal - I have not used the Ilford WT, just the Foma so I can't compare there. What I can say is that I use Galerie quit often and the CT is much glossier and in all actuality would prefer this in matte, but it won't stop me from using it. It's not glossy compared to an RC paper, though. The substrate of the CT is very nice but again the Galerie surface is exquisite. Galerie is pricey and I can't run through it the way I used to, but that's the only Ilford paper I've used that I can compare it too. I'm not complaining don't get me wrong, this is a very beautiful paper and I am stuck now because I am in the middle of a printing session and am almost out. If you're like me and not used to printing this cold is does take trial time. But again, I am loving the results and as soon as Freestyle opens again I will order a bunch more. Good luck with your results.

hansformat · Dec 24, 2013

I have spent about 4 hours cleaning my darkroom (actually our laundry room...) over the past few days...i have the cool paper and the edwal and i'm just about ready to go. This weekend for sure. This is incredible...thanks Ilford for doing this

VaryaV · Dec 24, 2013

Have fun you guys and good luck! .... I think this is going to be a very special paper.

Sal, I was mulling over (while printing my last sheet) that the closest I can compare it to would be the Slavich Unibrom 160 without the finish. I mourn the loss of not be able to get that anymore here in the states and bought 7 boxes to stock. I will pull out a couple sheets of my stash and run the same shot through and see how they compare side by side. And I LOVE that paper!

I did a few runs with filters and without and I have to say I prefer the look straight. But of course, that's a personal preference.

VaryaV · Dec 24, 2013

Ahhh... Kentmere Bromide?

Whiter/brighter and a tad heavier.... I like it much better.

pstake · Dec 24, 2013

VaryaV said:
Have fun you guys and good luck! .... I think this is going to be a very special paper.

Sal, I was mulling over (while printing my last sheet) that the closest I can compare it to would be the Slavich Unibrom 160 without the finish. I mourn the loss of not be able to get that anymore here in the states and bought 7 boxes to stock. I will pull out a couple sheets of my stash and run the same shot through and see how they compare side by side. And I LOVE that paper!

I did a few runs with filters and without and I have to say I prefer the look straight. But of course, that's a personal preference.

You can get Unibrom from here: http://www.laserreflections.com/Unibrom.html

She orders it a few times a year and you just have to let her know ahead of time and be patient. Really good customer service.

brian steinberger · Dec 24, 2013

Michael R 1974 said:
Shipment of MG Classic has arrived!

Hopefully I have enough chems for a testing all-nighter

Have fun Michael! Please keep us posted!

Richard Jepsen · Dec 24, 2013

Michael R 1974 said:
My goodness! And the characteristic curves for MGIV classic show no mid-tone compression even at grade 00.

I will be ordering this pronto and testing over the holidays. Happy holidays to me!!!!!

For several years I have been using Galerie. I like the natural white paper base, overall emulsion tone and surface finish. It's different in a good way than other paper.

I too noticed MGIV was at a slight disadvantage separating mid tones vs Galerie. Also, MGIV appeared less sharp. The photo arts will be poorer if Harman stopped producing Galerie. Hopefully this new paper can close the gap with the best graded paper left standing.

I read Classic's emulsion is slightly warmer than the paper it replaces. That would suit me for a neutral paper.

I'm not sure if this was addresses but a reduced wash time may indicate the paper lacks something......don't papers acceptable for bromoil or hand coloring lack a supercoat? Is it possible the emulation does not have hardener added?

Chris Lange · Dec 24, 2013

I am planning on ordering a box to try out very soon! The only other paper I truly like outside of Ilford ART300 for exhibition quality work is the Adox Variotone Warmtone and the Adox MCC. I'm looking to add the Cooltone to my repertoire as soon as I can try it and see what I can make of it!

Sal Santamaura · Dec 24, 2013

VaryaV said:
...What I can say is that I use Galerie quit often and the CT is much glossier and in all actuality would prefer this in matte, but it won't stop me from using it. It's not glossy compared to an RC paper, though. The substrate of the CT is very nice but again the Galerie surface is exquisite...

Thanks again Varya. That's the perfect frame of reference, since Galerie is my primary paper and I agree 100% with your assessment of how exquisite its surface is. On a slight tangent, if you'd like the most perfectly neutral print achievable, develop Galerie for 3 minutes in Moersch SE6 1+15 at 68 degrees (or equivalent time at a different temperature), then tone it in KRST 1+20 for 4 minutes at 75 degrees F.

VaryaV said:
...I was mulling over (while printing my last sheet) that the closest I can compare it to would be the Slavich Unibrom 160 without the finish...

Thanks for that extra effort. Unfortunately, I have no experience with the Slavich paper, but your first comparison with Galerie was exactly what was needed. I'm not sure I'll even try the Cooltone FB since its surface is so shiny. I might give Classic FB a go in Moersch SE6, since it's reported to have the same surface gloss as MGIV FB. However, Rudman says it's warmer than MGIV FB, so even SE6 + selenium might not neutralize it sufficiently without going purple. We shall see.

VaryaV · Dec 25, 2013

I just held the Coldtone up against the Galerie and it is only SLIGHTLY shinier. Don't let that sway your decision. Nothing compares to Galerie, however, and I would never give that up or the Slavich for it's cold matte finish. I am haplessly hanging on the the last of the graded papers. I always tone it in KRST 1+4 2m. Haven't tried the SE6 but as soon as I get more paper I'm going to run it through the MT7 for the blue. I'm sure I'll get a different blue but pair that up with ultra black of Edwal it may end up similar. I don't use the MGlV so I can't make a comparison.

Chris - Most of my stuff is soft focus but I think your street stuff (sharp focus) will lend itself really well to this paper. I know you'll produce some stunning prints with it based on what I've seen of your work.

pstake said:
You can get Unibrom from here: http://www.laserreflections.com/Unibrom.html

She orders it a few times a year and you just have to let her know ahead of time and be patient. Really good customer service.

Bookmarked. Thanks, pstake. I have a frig full of the #2 just for my sci-fi project but if I should ever run out I'll have a source now. Appreciate it!

And, yes, Michael please keep us posted. I can't wait for the results to start pouring in..... off to stuff the Christmas goose.

CHEERS everyone!

Sal Santamaura · Dec 25, 2013

Michael R 1974 said:
Sal, the sheen of MG Classic looks (to me) like MGIV. So far I've developed it in Dektol and Moersch SE3 for comparison with MGIV. Haven't had a chance to compare with Galerie yet. After I do selenium at various dilutions I can send you the SE3 swatches if you are interested.

Thanks Michael. I've a busy period coming up, so might not get to trying these new papers for a while, but hold off sending swatches. You've already incurred enough international postage expense.

Sal Santamaura · Dec 25, 2013

VaryaV said:
I just held the Coldtone up against the Galerie and it is only SLIGHTLY shinier. Don't let that sway your decision. Nothing compares to Galerie, however...

Thanks Varya. I'll probably end up trying both FB Classic and FB Cooltone, but it might be a while. Given that Rudman wrote the Cooltone is "much shinier" and you observe "slightly shinier," the only way to know whether I'll be happy with the finish is by printing on it myself.

Galerie remains my paper of choice; I mostly contact print large format negatives. Despite every effort to keep film exposure and development compatible with scene conditions, sometimes a VC paper would come in handy. Let's hope FB Cooltone turns out to be a VC paper that can approach Galerie prints' quality.

Richard Jepsen · Dec 25, 2013

After reading Alan Ross's report on MG Classic the new paper addresses the few shortfalls of MGIV fiber. News the emulsion will tone with better mid tone separation should increased richness. WooHoo!

With the short image formation time the paper emulsion must have incorporated a developer. Graded will have a longer shelf life.

I'm curious about the shorter untoned wash time. Since the paper weight remains the same as MGIV FB the coating must be different. If so, does that change how one should handle the prints in the wet stage?

VaryaV · Dec 25, 2013

I just posted my first Coldtone image to the Monthly Shooting Assigment gallery. Though scanning didn't do it justice (as always).

New black and white fibre-based papers from Ilford

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