New at Photokina 2012: ADOX SILVERMAX 35mm film 135/36

michaelbsc · Sep 18, 2012

Thomas Bertilsson said:
...All we need now is a film characteristic curve, lain right next to one of the APX 100 to cement that this is in fact nothing other than APX 100 film.

Well, I would postulate that the change in substrate negates the claim that it's "nothing other than APX 100" right off the bat. If they were to put it in boxes that said APX 100 on the side there would be a hue and cry to that effect from the peanut gallery immediately. ("Ewweeee!! That's not APX 100! It's got that weird base! They used a different Antihalation layer for it! The Sirens of Titan will bounce off it differently!" Ya-da ya-da ya-da.)

But I'll wager one could safely say that it is "substantially" APX 100, which is exactly what I want. Maybe the emulsion is a little thicker for the extra DMax Mirko mentions. Maybe not. But if it's 95% of APX 100, compared to 0% of APX 100 that's available except for a few rolls in my freezer, then I'm good with that.

But I still want 120 size later.

MB

Flux · Sep 18, 2012

Thomas Bertilsson said:
2. It is APX 100.

it seems Mirko has to repeat himself endlessly:

ADOX Fotoimpex said:
As said before it is based on Agfa technology and very similar to APX but on a clear base and with a thicker coating (silver rhich).
The spectral sensitivity is the same as identical sensitizers were used (up).
So compared to APX you will get more DMAX and a slightly higher contrast apart ofcourse from the different base.

MDR · Sep 19, 2012

To play the devils (thomas :devil: ) advocate here, clear acetate base was used for Scala and tinted acetate base for APX both are pretty much the same film. Foto Impex still sells both films. As has been mentioned quiet often manufactured or made by Inoviscoat only means that more than 50% of added value has to come from them nothing more and nothing less. If it were a new emulsion it would be available in different sizes and not in 35mm only. The new Super 8 Film could be rebadged APX as well, Wittner Kinotechnik sells APX 100 in Super8 Cartridges.

The introduction of Silvermax is still a good thing in my opinion, the internet is full of threads about this film creating propaganda for film and countering the effect of the film is dead song. So still congratulation and a big thank you to Mirko and his crew.

Dominik

Flux · Sep 19, 2012

MDR said:
If it were a new emulsion it would be available in different sizes and not in 35mm only.

They might make only one size, because they have the base for 135 from Agfas stock left. So there are no more costs for the base. That's why the film is so affordable. Since the base is very expensive it might be too risky to order bases for other formats.

MDR · Sep 19, 2012

The base is not bought or coated in 35mm but in larger sizes, you can use the 35mm base in medium format cameras, in LF it might become a problem. The Impex argument is BS sorry. If they said we only coat and sell 35mm because that's what people buy okay, the base argument is pardon the pun of base. Even Kentmere 100 and 400 are available in 120 size as Rollei RPX.

I am still not saying that the new Silvermax is not a new film. But I am pissed that they only offer it in 35mm.

Dominik

georg16nik · Sep 19, 2012

Dominik, are You sure Rollei RPX and Kentmere 100 135 and 400 135 use the same base?
Adox might have a better outlook about whats selling faster and they might want to sell some 135 in order to finance larger formats operation.

Henning Serger · Sep 19, 2012

Thomas Bertilsson said:
In this sheet - Click link - Agfa give only the processing starting times for γ 0.65, which is, incidentally, 17 minutes at 1+50 dilution of Rodinal, like you suggest above.

Thomas, here is the original Agfa APX 100 data sheet which includes the gamma - time curves:

http://www.maco-photo.de/files/images/agfa_apx100.pdf

Reading all the "conspiracy theories" here I have to smile and can only shake my head .
I've used this film. As I have very clearly said, it is similar to APX 100 and Scala 200X, but not completely identical.
I've already tested it in two reversal processes, the Wehner and Scala process.
For example Scala 200X in the Scala process gives a light warm tone, but Silvermax has a neutral tone in this process, and a bit less speed.

Best regards,
Henning

Flux · Sep 19, 2012

MDR said:
The base is not bought or coated in 35mm but in larger sizes, you can use the 35mm base in medium format cameras,

Then indeed it is a pity they do not offer other sizes. But Impex surely has a better insight which formats sell well than us.

I do not understand how you come to the conclusion that it must be an old emulsion, because it is only offered in one size. You still think that it is an old film with new label?

Henning Serger · Sep 19, 2012

MDR said:
Even Kentmere 100 and 400 are available in 120 size as Rollei RPX.

Dominik

Hello Dominik,

No, Kentmere 100 / 400 and Rollei RPX 100 / 400 are definitely not the same films, but different emulsions. If you compare them directly side by side you will see it.
Independant developer manufacturers like Wolfgang Moersch ( www.moersch-photochemie.de ) and Heribert Schain from Spur (www.spur-photo.com ) have intensively tested both the two Kentmere and the two RPX films and say that the emulsions are different (and therefore also different developing times in the Moersch and Spur developers).
Another friend of mine has also tested these films in direct comparison and has confirmed the results from Moersch and Spur.

The RPX films are coated by Harman/Ilfordphoto.
But as Simon Galley always very clearly has said, they will not offer their original Ilford and Kentmere products to other companies.
But they do manufacturing for other companies with different products.

Best regards,
Henning

MDR · Sep 19, 2012

Thank you georg16nik for pointing out the obvious they are not coated on the same base.
According to Adox the Art series CHS 50 (Efke 50) was coated on the same 100 micron base. According to the Rollei/Maco Datasheet their Retro 100 Tonal was also coated on the same base in both 35 and 120. So using one base for two sizes is possible.
"they might want to sell some 135 in order to finance larger formats operation" is answered by Mirko on the Impex site "SILVERMAX is only available as a 35mm film and will not be manufactured in other formats."

Henning I've never used either film but according to the maco-direct site they are the same film:
"....Sobald die Bestände des Retro 100 verkauft sein werden, bietet Maco den RPX 100 statt dessen an.
Im Detail:
Als 135 Kleinbildfilm gemeinsam mit Ilford als Kentmere 100,.." Source: http://www.macodirect.de/rollei-120brzur-zeit-nicht-lager-verfgbar-p-2272.html

Flux: No I am not sure that this is a new film, but I certainly hope that it is.

I wish Mirko and Foto Impex the best of luck but until it's 100% certain that this is not the old APX/Scala but a new film I won't be ordering any.

Dominik

Henning Serger · Sep 19, 2012

MDR said:
Source: http://www.macodirect.de/rollei-120brzur-zeit-nicht-lager-verfgbar-p-2272.html
Dominik

Dominik, sorry, but I can't find any statement on the Maco website and the RPX data sheets that RPX is identical to the Kentmere films.

Best regards,
Henning

georg16nik · Sep 19, 2012

Thanks, Henning. I saw that the SILVERMAX developer is already available http://www.fotoimpex.de/shop/fotoch...vermax-developer-250ml-to-make-75-liters.html
Whats the smell like?
Dominik, You know that Efke changed from acetate to poly and that might explains it for CHS and the Tonal films.
Thanks, Bundesphotograph., last year I shot a few rolls RPX100 120 batch#0331 exp 01/2016 but haven't checked the pdf files in much detail..

MDR · Sep 19, 2012

Henning if you follow the link to the Maco-direct (german not english site) this text should have appeared,:

"Maco stellte bei der Photokina 2010 den RPX100 als einen sehr geeigneten Nachfolger zum Rollei Retro 100 vor. Sowohl als 135 als auch 120.

Sobald die Bestände des Retro 100 verkauft sein werden, bietet Maco den RPX 100 statt dessen an.
Im Detail:
Als 135 Kleinbildfilm gemeinsam mit Ilford als Kentmere 100,
als 120 Rollfilm unverändert als RPX100."

Georg I am well aware that they are on a Polyester/Estar Base but even when coating on Polyester one usually uses a different thickness for different film sizes. In case of Tonal and CHS LF Formats are on a different base but not the smaller Formats.

Dominik

Henning Serger · Sep 19, 2012

MDR said:
Henning if you follow the link to the Maco-direct (german not english site) this text should have appeared,:
Dominik

Dominik, such a text does not appear if I click on their website.
I remember one statement of the former Maco Photo Products CEO (he has left the company one year ago) in a German forum, in which he said the films are the same.That has been short after the introduction, if I remember it right.
AFAIK this statement has been corrected when the first side by side comparisons were made.

Best regards,
Henning

Henning Serger · Sep 19, 2012

Dominik, thanks for the info via pm; looks like a browser problem here at me with this site.
The statement on the German site is outdated (on the English site it has been already deleted), update necessary. I will be at Photokina this week and tell them.

Best regards,
Henning

K-G · Sep 19, 2012

MDR said:
The base is not bought or coated in 35mm but in larger sizes, you can use the 35mm base in medium format cameras, in LF it might become a problem. The Impex argument is BS sorry. If they said we only coat and sell 35mm because that's what people buy okay, the base argument is pardon the pun of base. Even Kentmere 100 and 400 are available in 120 size as Rollei RPX.

I am still not saying that the new Silvermax is not a new film. But I am pissed that they only offer it in 35mm.

Dominik

Most other films available in both 35 mm and 120 size are coated on different base material. Check the technical specifications for both Kodak and Ilford films and you will find ( on those places where it is listed ) that 120 film is coated on a thinner base than 35 mm . Only selling 35 mm film makes sence if that is the base that is available. If the entire production is sold out in a month ( what a dream ! ), I am quite sure Mirko will consider both 35 mm and 120 size.

Karl-Gustaf

Richard S. (rich815) · Sep 19, 2012

This debate can be ended. Someone from Adox simply come out as say this:

"I unequivocally and definitively state that the Silvermax film is not APX100,"

Simple.

MDR · Sep 19, 2012

Karl Gustaf I am aware that most films are coated on bases with a different thickness for 35 and 120 I said as much in my post. Mirko claimed that they couldn't produce 120 films because of the cost for different base material and I wanted to show that it is possible to use the same base for both 35 and 120 film by coming up with examples. The base is cut after coating and not before coating. Furthermore Mirko has stated that Silvermax won't produced in any other sizes.

I also wished them success for silvermax numerous times.

Dominik

Thomas Bertilsson · Sep 19, 2012

MDR said:
Karl Gustaf I am aware that most films are coated on bases with a different thickness for 35 and 120 I said as much in my post. Mirko claimed that they couldn't produce 120 films because of the cost for different base material and I wanted to show that it is possible to use the same base for both 35 and 120 film by coming up with examples. The base is cut after coating and not before coating. Furthermore Mirko has stated that Silvermax won't produced in any other sizes.

I also wished them success for silvermax numerous times.

Dominik

Wasn't Rollei Retro 100 and 400 cut and furnished in both 120 and 35mm size from the same base material (intended for 35mm)?

laser · Sep 19, 2012

Has anyone seen a DLog E curve for this film?

Thomas Bertilsson · Sep 19, 2012

laser said:
Has anyone seen a DLog E curve for this film?

When one is made available, if it looks anything like the attached, then we'll know for sure.

MDR · Sep 19, 2012

Thomas according to the Maco Datasheet they used a different base material thickness for 35 and 120 film
35mm = 120µm, rollfilm = 95µm, cellulose triacetate
If I remember correctly there was a discussion on Apug about Retro having the same base in 35 and 120 and maco is known to be a little creative.

Thomas no we don't according to them it is a slightly modified APX 100, so it could share the same characteristics.

Good film A big thank you to Maco for having offered the film in 120.

Dominik

michaelbsc · Sep 19, 2012

Thomas Bertilsson said:
Wasn't Rollei Retro 100 and 400 cut and furnished in both 120 and 35mm size from the same base material (intended for 35mm)?

Yes, that's correct. It was a 35mm master roll that had not been slit into pancakes yet. So the deal was struck to cut it into 120 size and confectioned with backing paper on spools instead of in cartridges.

I still have an unopened box of it in my freezer. (I am not a hoarder. I am not a hoarder. I am not a hoarder.)

It's just a tad finicky to get on a Patterson reel, but once you get the hang of it there's no problem, and it feeds fine in any camera I've used it in.

MB

michaelbsc · Sep 19, 2012

rich815 said:
This debate can be ended. Someone from Adox simply come out as say this:

"I unequivocally and definitively state that the Silvermax film is not APX100,"

Simple.

I thought Mirko had already said that.

I thought they were quite clear that it is absolutely based on APX 100, but is is not APX 100. So in my mind we should be thinking of it like it's APX 100's brother.

If you stand me next to my brother and look at us it is abundantly clear that 1) we are not exactly the same person, and 2) we are very closely related to each other, probably from the same parents.

I suspect if we were to get two camera bodies with matched lenses (*), and put a roll of SilverMax in one and a roll of real APX 100 in the other and shoot the scene, then develop in the same tank, we would get extremely similar but discernibly different results.

(*) It's a sad comment that I suspect 35mm camera equipment has gotten so cheap that we can easily try this except for the availability the roll of APX 100.

Thomas Bertilsson · Sep 19, 2012

michaelbsc said:
I thought Mirko had already said that.

I thought they were quite clear that it is absolutely based on APX 100, but is is not APX 100. So in my mind we should be thinking of it like it's APX 100's brother.

If you stand me next to my brother and look at us it is abundantly clear that 1) we are not exactly the same person, and 2) we are very closely related to each other, probably from the same parents.

I suspect if we were to get two camera bodies with matched lenses (*), and put a roll of SilverMax in one and a roll of real APX 100 in the other and shoot the scene, then develop in the same tank, we would get extremely similar but discernibly different results.

(*) It's a sad comment that I suspect 35mm camera equipment has gotten so cheap that we can easily try this except for the availability the roll of APX 100.

Or better yet, use a step wedge and then plot curves from both films.

New at Photokina 2012: ADOX SILVERMAX 35mm film 135/36

michaelbsc

Flux

MDR

Flux

MDR

georg16nik

Henning Serger

Flux

Henning Serger

MDR

Henning Serger

georg16nik

MDR

Henning Serger

Henning Serger

K-G

Richard S. (rich815)

MDR

Thomas Bertilsson

laser

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michaelbsc

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New at Photokina 2012: ADOX SILVERMAX 35mm film 135/36

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