Neofin Blue agitation

Jerevan · Nov 18, 2006

I just started to use Neofin Blue, mostly out of curiosity. Now, the instruction from Tetenal says one should use inversion agitation every 3 seconds. Is this really correct? That doesn't sound like a compensating developer to me...

I also thought this developer was based on metol (more akin to Beutlers formula) but the bottle says it contains hydroquinone and potassium carbonate. Normally I use Rodinal, in 1:50 and 1:100 dilutions so I am familiar with the workings of compensating developers. However, first negatives out of the soup looks promising.

Tom Hoskinson · Nov 18, 2006

Jerevan said:
I just started to use Neofin Blue, mostly out of curiosity. Now, the instruction from Tetenal says one should use inversion agitation every 3 seconds. Is this really correct? That doesn't sound like a compensating developer to me...

I also thought this developer was based on metol (more akin to Beutlers formula) but the bottle says it contains hydroquinone and potassium carbonate. Normally I use Rodinal, in 1:50 and 1:100 dilutions so I am familiar with the workings of compensating developers. However, first negatives out of the soup looks promising.

Do your results confirm that this version of Neofin Blue is a compensating developer?

How is the image acutance and grain in your negs?

Have you done densitometry measurements on your negs? if you have, was any image stain present?

Hydroquinone and an alkali will produce proportional image stain and emulsion tanning if the sulfite levels in the developer are low - thus producing a compensating effect.

A example is the Windisch Compensating Developer. The Windisch working solution contains a small amount of Catechol (Hydroquinone's sibling), a small amount of Sodium Sulfite and a small amount of Alkali (as a 10% Sodium Hydroxide solution).

sergio caetano · Nov 18, 2006

Jerevan
...every 3 seconds... or ...every 30 seconds... ?????????

Ole · Nov 18, 2006

Neofin is not a compensating developer - it's an acutance developer! So is Rodinal, by the way. At least as it's normally used.

Three inversions every thirty seconds is more in line with the normal usage (as well as with Beutler's instructions).

sergio caetano · Nov 18, 2006

As Ole said, it is for acutance, not for compensating.
I think it has the same formula as one of my favorite : Willi Beutler.

Jerevan · Nov 18, 2006

I used the Neofin in this particular case to see if it was possible to use it together with lith film (Efke, exposed at ISO 12).

I used one bottle (30 ml) and water to make 700 ml of solution. I had two separate negatives, with identical exposures. I tried the first one in 7.5 minutes of slow, continuous agitation as per instructions. It is definitely a bit over-cooked, and will be hard to print, something like grade 1 or 0. The second one, also developed for 7.5 minutes but this time with 15 seconds initial agitation and one 5 sec agitation halfway through. The second one is on the other end of the scale - lower contrast but to my eyes it looks like it would print decently on grade 2.5-3.

Image acutance and grain looks crisp, but you need some serious magnification... I have not made any density readings so I can't say anything about image stain. No apparent visual stain is present, as far as I can see.

As this test was made on a lith film, I think I'll have to wait until I've used it on normal Efke 100 to give any general statements about its compensatory effects.

Jerevan · Nov 18, 2006

If it is an acutance developer, it'll get me more or less the same results as would have had from diluted Rodinal when doing this test. And that I already had at home. Oh well... you live and learn, eh?

Arvee · Nov 18, 2006

My interpretation is that a single inversion should take 3 sec. (slow and easy) and I also suspect that the normal 5 sec/30 or 10 sec/60 agititation interval would apply. Therefore, approximately 3 inversions each minute during the development cycle.

An inversion every 3 seconds for the duration is much like processing in a Jobo and will definitely give you dense negs.

I used Neofin in the commercial and home brew versions many years ago and souped between 7 and 10 minutes depending on film type with normal 5/30 agitation schedule and always got nice negs, just slightly on the thin side.

Just my .02,

Ron

Arvee · Nov 18, 2006

Or, as mentioned, it could be a typo and mean '30' seconds.

Tom Hoskinson · Nov 18, 2006

sergio caetano said:
As Ole said, it is for acutance, not for compensating.
I think it has the same formula as one of my favorite : Willi Beutler.

But Sergio (and Ole), Willi Beutler's developer recipe contains Metol, sodium sulfite and sodium carbonate.

Jerevan wrote: "the (Neofin) bottle says it contains hydroquinone and potassium carbonate."

If it also contained Metol or some Phenidone and some sulfite in addition to the Hydroquinone - it could still work as an acutance developer - and possibly as a compensating developer (acutance does not preclude compensation).

Fotohuis · Nov 19, 2006

It's not a mistake: 3S is the Tetenal agitation method. Different like Agfa: 30S continuous and then every 30S 2 times, for roll films every 15S, 1 time to prevent the bromide drag.

Tetenal Neofin Blau is an acutance developer, non compensating. Quite simular like Amaloco AM50. This last one is also containing a larger amount hydroxide (working on a pH level of 12), just over 1% hydroquinone and around 3% pyrocatechin derivates. AM50 is a non staining developer.
Super sharp negatives and an acceptable grain so very suitable for classical slow speed films like Efke 25/Adox25, Rollei PAN25.
You have to try these developers on the mentioned type of emulsions, even sharper than Rodinal 1+100 which is already pretty good!
A precise exposure of the films is necessary to have the right results.

Best regards,

Robert

Jerevan · Nov 19, 2006

Tom Hoskinson said:
If it also contained Metol or some Phenidone and some sulfite in addition to the Hydroquinone - it could still work as an acutance developer - and possibly as a compensating developer (acutance does not preclude compensation).

Looking more closely at the bottle I found it contains <1% of p-Methylaminophenol sulfate, i.e Metol. The blurb in the information sheet says "surface and compensating developer with high speed yield". And my tests yesterday points in that direction. Thanks for all information, I'll continue the testing.

Ole · Nov 19, 2006

The Neofin composition has changed several times, of that I'm certain. But that's about the only thing I'm certain of!

However it seems to behave just like Willi Beutler's "acutance developer for 35mm films", in all the incarnations I've used.

sergio caetano · Nov 19, 2006

Tom
You are right.
If it contains hydroquinone and potassium carbonate it can't be Willi Beutler developer.
I said it could be the same because I've read in more than one book/text that Neofin Blue and WBeutler were supposed to be the same.

Trask · Nov 19, 2006

I've got an article called "The Neofin Technique" which you might find of interest. Send me a PM w/ yr email address and I'll send it to you. Also, I had a Neofin thread some time ago, in which we also discussed the chemical composition.

Jerevan · Nov 19, 2006

Trask,

I'll pop you a pm. I'll do another search in the archives again and see what I can find there.

Could be that Neofin is a victim of the "brand name sickness": someone buys a well-known brand name and puts it on whatever it sticks on. And as many formulas are proprietary, it's hard to know what's actually in the developer.

Ole · Nov 20, 2006

sergio caetano said:
I said it could be the same because I've read in more than one book/text that Neofin Blue and WBeutler were supposed to be the same.

The one "authority" I trust on that question is Willi Beutler. And he did not say they were the same.

sergio caetano · Nov 20, 2006

Ole said:
The one "authority" I trust on that question is Willi Beutler. And he did not say they were the same.

Stronger authority than Willi Beutler, your authority, my authority, is the COMMERCIAL authority.

Gerald Koch · Nov 20, 2006

The last MSDS that I have for Neofin Blue is dated 2003. It has the following composition for the working solution.

Sodium sulfite 2.2%
Metol 0.9%
Phenidone 0.4%
Potassium carbonate 5-10%

There have been many incarnations of this developer.

Neofin Blue agitation

Jerevan

Tom Hoskinson

sergio caetano

Ole

Moderator

sergio caetano

Jerevan

Jerevan

Arvee

Arvee

Tom Hoskinson

Fotohuis

Jerevan

Ole

Moderator

sergio caetano

Trask

Jerevan

Ole

Moderator

sergio caetano

Gerald Koch

Neofin Blue agitation

Moderator

Moderator

Moderator

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency