Nelsons Gold Toner vs. Hypo-Alum Toner

[brian steinberger]

I'm confused on the difference between these two toners. I have used the Nelsons gold toner and love it, but it is $$$ compared to the Hypo-Alum toner, which sounds to me like it gives equal results. Both toners turn the print a brown to reddish brown sepia, both need to be heated up to 125 degrees for between 5 and 30 minutes, and both offer permanance for the image. What are the differences? BTW.. I have the Toning Book. Thanks!

Brian

 

[ann]

you can get some interesting splits with hypo alum and sometimes with Nelson's Gold.

In our lab and classes they are different, which of course will depend on papers used.


The hypo alum can be replenished and can last years with that routine.


the nelson's gold cost is due to the gold, but there is a difference and it really is going to depend on what you want.

 

[brian steinberger]

I wish there was a step wedge in Tim's book showing Hypo-Alum. I use Ilford MGIV and Bergger MCCB. I've had awesome results with Nelsons Gold Toner and MGIV. Just a very nice golden, almost pinkish in the highlights, and the shadows remained solid. I selenium toned before nelsons gold toning.

 

[Ryuji]

Hypo alum toner has an advantage of not giving off foul odor like polysulfide toner, but it is actually more difficult to use hypo alum toner than polysulfide toners. This is because if you don't season the hypo alum solution, you can lose rich black and get weak brown image. Polysulfide toners can enhance Dmax just like selenium depending on the print developer and toner usage. I personally like the results I get with a variant of polysulfide toner, since it gives very warm brown black while maintaining rich, strong shadow areas.

 

[ilya1963]

Have you toned AZO and if you did what was your results?

ILYA

 

[dancqu]

... polysulfide toners ...

Polysulfides, sulfur dissolved in sodium sulfide. Sodium
sulfide itself is used for indirect toning. It won't work
alone as a direct toner? Or is it slower than a poly
and therefore not recommended? Dan

 

[Ryuji]

Polysulfides, sulfur dissolved in sodium sulfide.

Not true.

Sodium
sulfide itself is used for indirect toning. It won't work
alone as a direct toner?

Correct.

 

[Denis P.]

(it) is actually more difficult to use hypo alum toner than polysulfide toners. This is because if you don't season the hypo alum solution, you can lose rich black and get weak brown image.

I'm just about to mix my own, following the istructions found here...

It mentions "ripening" the toning solution by adding silver nitrate...
Is that your reference to "seasoning"?

It will be my first use and preparation of a toner of ANY kind, so I'm a bit worried how to prepare it.

I wonder if I got the recipe right... So, after preparing hypo-alum (step 2 in the above mentioned recipe), you add silver nitrate...
I'm also going to add some Potassium Iodide, since my goal is brown final tone of the prints...

Still it cannot be used as a toner immediately - you first have to "sacrifice" several prints to obtain a proper toning solution, right?

Does the quantity of "sacrificed" paper change if you add more silver nitrate?

Also, do "sacrificial" prints have to be actual prints? I'm asking because I have some fogged paper - can I use that instead of fresh paper/prints?

Thanks for any pointers....

Denis

 

[Ryuji]

It mentions "ripening" the toning solution by adding silver nitrate...
Is that your reference to "seasoning"?

Yes.

Still it cannot be used as a toner immediately - you first have to "sacrifice" several prints to obtain a proper toning solution, right?

Does the quantity of "sacrificed" paper change if you add more silver nitrate?

Addition of some silver nitrate should have similar, if not identical, effect to going through some sacrificial prints.

Also, do "sacrificial" prints have to be actual prints? I'm asking because I have some fogged paper - can I use that instead of fresh paper/prints?

Those work fine.

 

[Denis P.]

Ryuji,

thanks a million for your help!

Denis

 

[dancqu]

[QUOTES=Ryuji;453865]

"Not true."

OK. Perhaps I should have mentioned potassium
as well. Perhaps a quote from L. Pauling's College
Chemistry will do: "Sulfur dissolves in a solution
of an alkali or alkaline-earth sulfide, forming a
mixture of polysulfides."

Smith's College Chemistry repeats Pauling save
for the alkaline-earths.

"Correct."

Perhaps in sofar as toning is concerned. An IPI report
I've read mentioned the entirely acceptable long term
archival results obtained by treating microfilm in a
solution of sodium sulfide. Not toning per say but
akin. Perhaps long soaks? Dan

 

[Ryuji]

OK. Perhaps I should have mentioned potassium as well.

That doesn't matter.

Perhaps a quote from L. Pauling's College
Chemistry will do: "Sulfur dissolves in a solution
of an alkali or alkaline-earth sulfide, forming a
mixture of polysulfides."

At what condition?

Perhaps in sofar as toning is concerned. An IPI report
I've read mentioned the entirely acceptable long term
archival results obtained by treating microfilm in a
solution of sodium sulfide. Not toning per say but
akin. Perhaps long soaks? Dan

First, did they publish a "report" saying that? I'd like to have the exact citation for that.

As far as I know, the "sodium sulfide" treatment story was very briefly described on their lab newsletter and similar casual articles, and the point is often misunderstood or deliberately overstated by people who cite them on APUG and elsewhere. Fresh sodium sulfide or potassium sulfide solution may provide some image protection against very weak oxidative attacks, but it won't be as practical as polysulfide treatment as a processing technique, nor will it be as effective in image protection as polysulfide treatment.

One problem is that only a very thin surface area can ever come in contact with sulfide solution. Another problem is that plain sulfide solution is not stable and can't be used for long. Polysulfide is much better in both of these areas.