Negatives Mystery

markjwyatt · Nov 8, 2019

Last weekend I ran a roll of film through my Kodak Retina Reflex. I used four different lenses. I loaded the roll and noted that the rewind know was turning. After 36 shots, I sent the roll in for processing (The Darkroom), and got an online note back that it was "blank or did not contain images". I thought, wow, the film must have slipped off and will come back blank. But I got the negatives, and the entire exposed area is dark black, including between frames, and the sprockets are clear! The starting part of the roll is exposed all the way across. No sign of images. I checked the cocking sequence, and shutter, mirror, dark door all operate normally now. I shot a roll a couple months ago, no issues.

Either somehow something (door or shutter- mirror operated normally for a Retina Reflex- up until cocked again) got stuck temporarily just for the period I was shooting, or something that I have not thought of happened. It is not a general light leak because the sprockets are unexposed. It would be hard to even blame the lab because the edges are pretty much clear. I have attached a picture.

Lot's of smart people on here, any ideas?

MattKing · Nov 8, 2019

Fascinating - the rebate is clear, so it must have happened in the camera.
Can you see any evidence of between frame differentiation?

markjwyatt · Nov 8, 2019

MattKing said:
Fascinating - the rebate is clear, so it must have happened in the camera.
Can you see any evidence of between frame differentiation?

No, it is solid across all frames and between frames. I have seen mistakes, but have never seen this.

Wonder what would happen if it get sent through C-41 or E6 by mistake? I suspect there would be bad images at least and nothing between frames.

MattKing · Nov 8, 2019

markjwyatt said:
Wonder what would happen if it get sent through C-41 or E6 by mistake?

The rebate edges would be different. Is there any edge printing?

markjwyatt · Nov 8, 2019

MattKing said:
The rebate edges would be different. Is there any edge printing?

Edges are pretty much clear. There was enough light that there is a little dark bleeding into the edges. Maybe the developing machine got stopped in the developer for a long time 30-60 minutes? The we could see some diffusion, but that may not explain between the frames darkness. I need to look at some older negatives to see how the spacing size.

EDIT: spacing is very uniform on the last roll, 2-2.5 mm between frames (I would say med-large spacing)

Kino · Nov 8, 2019

You didn't happen to shoot respooled motion picture film did you?

markjwyatt · Nov 8, 2019

Kino said:
You didn't happen to shoot respooled motion picture film did you?

No. A brand new individual roll of Ilford FP4+ 135-36.

Kino · Nov 8, 2019

Wow. That's really strange...

If the processing machine had stopped, even for an extended period, and there were images on the film, you should be able to detect some density variations.

This looks like a uniform exposure, from what I can see.

markjwyatt · Nov 8, 2019

Kino said:
Wow. That's really strange...

If the processing machine had stopped, even for an extended period, and there were images on the film, you should be able to detect some density variations.

This looks like a uniform exposure, from what I can see.

Looks really uniform. There is a tiny bit of bleeding into the sprockets (maybe 1.5-2 mm) of a lower density.

reddesert · Nov 8, 2019

I have no direct experience with the Retina Reflex. The fact that the between-frame areas are fully dark, while the bleed into the sprocket area is faint, suggests that light may have struck the film as it was being wound. That suggests something was off in the sequence of dark blind - mirror return - film wind - shutter open.

Kino · Nov 8, 2019

I would be inclined to think you didn't get your original film back and there was a mix-up at the lab somehow. It's not so dense that it would totally obliterate any original exposures and the clear rebate is totally inconsistent with an accidental exposure.

For the life of me, it looks like it was printed on a motion picture printer with an empty gate.

The only other thing I can think of is if you loaded the film, the shutter never opened until you hit the end of the roll, the shutter stuck open and you rewound the film while pointed at a very uniform light source.

Not likely...

MattKing · Nov 8, 2019

Kino said:
The only other thing I can think of is if you loaded the film, the shutter never opened until you hit the end of the roll, the shutter stuck open and you rewound the film while pointed at a very uniform light source.

This actually seems the most likely option, except for the lack of edge printing.

markjwyatt · Nov 9, 2019

reddesert said:
I have no direct experience with the Retina Reflex. The fact that the between-frame areas are fully dark, while the bleed into the sprocket area is faint, suggests that light may have struck the film as it was being wound. That suggests something was off in the sequence of dark blind - mirror return - film wind - shutter open.

This makes the most sense.

As I think about it- I hit 36 and tried to wind one more. I came very close but not quite (95+%). I then tried releasing the shutter but got no response. This may have messed up the sequence. I also initially hit the counter advance switch. But suspect it had nothing to do with it. Note to self- don’t try and wind an extra shot on the Retina! Or at least get a lens cap just in case because I rewound with the lens uncovered.

markjwyatt · Nov 9, 2019

I will try and reproduce this.
Thanks everyone!

John Wiegerink · Nov 9, 2019

The leaf shutter and aperture stop-down systems of cameras like the Retina Reflex, Ziess Contaflex and Voiglander Bessa Reflex cameras are very complex compared to simpler designs that don't have a builtin leaf shutter. Trust me, I've fixed and tried to fix a few. Your camera has either the shutter/aperture timing askew or the shutter blades are not closing after exposures or randomly not closing. This is a very common problem with these cameras due to sitting on a shelf and not being exercised periodically. I have a small collection of Zeiss Contaflex cameras that I have gone over and brought up to snuff. I play with those at least once every month just to keep the shutters freed up. If you still have problems you might want to use a "DROP" of Naptha on the shutter blades and then work the shutter, wiping carefully each time you trip it to remove the excess Naptha and oil from the blades. These are complicated designs, but very nice cameras when working properly. Fix and enjoy. JohnW

Ian Grant · Nov 9, 2019

As John says it's got to be a shutter issue, not closing fully. You should be able to check with a torch,

Ian

markjwyatt · Nov 9, 2019

Thanks, everyone. I did have the camera repaired, and at the time (late last year) the shutter was fine, but I will work with it a little.

As to edge printing- if you mean numbers, brand name, etc., yes, all of that is there.

markjwyatt · Nov 11, 2019

I have not reproduced the full problem, but the shutter opens near the very end of the stroke. About halfway through, the door blocks the film plane. Not sure exactly what happened, but I suspect it is related to trying to wind that 37th shot.

pwitkop · Nov 19, 2019

Weighing in late but I'd say with very high confidence that it's a shutter issue or leak around the front of the camera. As far as I understand this is a leaf shutter (therefore in the lens and in front of the mirror) so if the seals around the mirror were bad I wonder if you could be getting light coming in through the finder. A curtain shutter slr can't have this trouble except during long exposures.

The development was at least close enough you should be seeing images because the edge markings (which are put there, exposed, during packaging). If it were light leaks in the camera, it would have shown up somewhere in the rebate edge. The same for fogging during film loading or processing. Based on where the film is dark lots of photons hit the film, and they came through the front of the camera.

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