Negatives curled make it almost impossible to scan . . .

John Galt · Aug 9, 2017

Not sure if this is the right forum but they are 6X6 so into Medium Format I guess.

I don't have my darkroom set up yet so I am scanning my negatives with an Epson V600. Some negatives, particularly Ilford FP4 and HP5 tend to dry with a curl that runs along the long axis. This makes it very difficult to place them properly into the scanning holder. I also see some lack of sharpness in the scanned image which I suspect is due to the curl not allowing the neg to be flat in the scanner. . .

Any thoughts or solutions? thanks

Ko.Fe. · Aug 9, 2017

It will affect printing as well. Take your time. Place it in the book for one month.

hashtagquack · Aug 9, 2017

Ive not had a curl issue with HP5 or FP4 in the past... How are you drying the negatives? I usually just hang them and place a clothes pin on the loose end and this will be sufficient to cause the negs to be flat when cutting them down.

John Galt · Aug 9, 2017

hashtagquack said:
Ive not had a curl issue with HP5 or FP4 in the past... How are you drying the negatives? I usually just hang them and place a clothes pin on the loose end and this will be sufficient to cause the negs to be flat when cutting them down.

Hanging on the shower curtain rod with a standard clip at the top and a weighted clip at the bottom

hashtagquack · Aug 9, 2017

John Galt said:
Hanging on the shower curtain rod with a standard clip at the top and a weighted clip at the bottom

I wonder if its the weighted clip that causing it to fold down the centre... The clip I would use is relatively light but will still hold the film taut. I will defer to other more experienced apuggers to add their thoughts although I will add that I sometimes scan after cutting or wait a few days and never had the curl issue with Ilford films. I do however have major curl issues with Tri X.

Wallendo · Aug 9, 2017

In my limited experience, curling is related to the humidity when drying. TX400, in particular tends to curl excessively if the air is too dry. When I have curling issues, I find that running the shower a few minutes before drying the film helps.

Your scanning issue can be fixed by using a holder with glass. They are somewhat expensive, but address the problem.

tedr1 · Aug 9, 2017

My V600 includes an accessory that helps flatten curled 120 strips. My impression is that the Epson is not very sensitive to film curl, perhaps because there is some "DOF" in the optical system?

removed account4 · Aug 9, 2017

do you have your film in print vue negative sleeves ?

Ko.Fe. said:
It will affect printing as well. Take your time. Place it in the book for one month.

+1
if sleeved, i leave them under a thick stack other sleeved-negative

eric antonio · Aug 9, 2017

Haven't had hp5 or fp4 curl before. I've had techpan and J&C film (remember them!) curl like a pillbug.

What type of fixer are you using? Hardener in the fix?

Mainecoonmaniac · Aug 9, 2017

I scan older versions of Arista EDU film which has a curly film base. I use drafting tape to tape down negs from the base (shiny) side. I own an Epson V700 and the film holders are lousy. Glass film holders can help, but they're a pain. You'll have a total of 6 surfaces to clean and Newton's rings can be a problem with it's humid. If you're interested, here's the link.

http://www.betterscanning.com/

If you're totally fanatical about sharpness, you can also fluid mount your film too. But you'll have to use a toxic fluid.

http://scanscience.com/

brent8927 · Aug 9, 2017

I scan my negatives as well, though I use Delta 400 most of the time.

Just as with printing with an enlarger, prevention of film curl is the first step. I don't know much about how the humidity impacts the curl--maybe I've just been lucky, but typically just putting a stainless steel clip at the bottom to weigh it down slightly has left me with minimal curl.

I use the stock holders in the V700, as I find they work just as well as the aftermarket one. I have that one too, from betterscanning.com, and have two ANR glass inserts that can weigh down the film if needed. I just haven't noticed any benefit, but most others say they do see a benefit with these film holders. From their website, it looks like they make film holders for the V600 as well.

Another option that is at least available with the V700, is using the fluid mount accessory, putting the film on that, and then museum glass on top of that. I've read about a lot of people using that technique, but haven't tried it myself. They say the ANR glass typically isn't necessary, and that this way you get even flatter film, so I was hoping to try it sometime.

Lastly, there's the suggestion made earlier to leave the negatives under heavy books for a month. I usually only wait a week as I get impatient.

Edit: I should clarify that I haven't noticed any benefit in focusing/getting an in-focus scan (the scanner has just one plane of focus) with the betterscanning film holders compared to the Epson. If I had real problems with film curl I'm certain I'd notice a difference, but like I said, my film curl problems are typically minimal.

John Galt · Aug 9, 2017

tedr1 said:
My V600 includes an accessory that helps flatten curled 120 strips. My impression is that the Epson is not very sensitive to film curl, perhaps because there is some "DOF" in the optical system?

thanks tedr1, I have that but have not figured out how to use it, can find no reference to it in the users guide :/ and the little graphic on it is useless . .

John Galt · Aug 9, 2017

jnanian said:
do you have your film in print vue negative sleeves ?

+1
if sleeved, i leave them under a thick stack other sleeved-negative[/QUOTE

yes jnanian, in clear view sleeves.

John Galt · Aug 9, 2017

eric antonio said:
Haven't had hp5 or fp4 curl before. I've had techpan and J&C film (remember them!) curl like a pillbug.

What type of fixer are you using? Hardener in the fix?

eric antonio I am using Kodak fixer,

John Galt · Aug 9, 2017

brent 8927 said:
I scan my negatives as well, though I use Delta 400 most of the time.

Just as with printing with an enlarger, prevention of film curl is the first step. I don't know much about how the humidity impacts the curl--maybe I've just been lucky, but typically just putting a stainless steel clip at the bottom to weigh it down slightly has left me with minimal curl.

I use the stock holders in the V700, as I find they work just as well as the aftermarket one. I have that one too, from betterscanning.com, and have two ANR glass inserts that can weigh down the film if needed. I just haven't noticed any benefit, but most others say they do see a benefit with these film holders. From their website, it looks like they make film holders for the V600 as well.

Another option that is at least available with the V700, is using the fluid mount accessory, putting the film on that, and then museum glass on top of that. I've read about a lot of people using that technique, but haven't tried it myself. They say the ANR glass typically isn't necessary, and that this way you get even flatter film, so I was hoping to try it sometime.

Lastly, there's the suggestion made earlier to leave the negatives under heavy books for a month. I usually only wait a week as I get impatient.

Edit: I should clarify that I haven't noticed any benefit in focusing/getting an in-focus scan (the scanner has just one plane of focus) with the betterscanning film holders compared to the Epson. If I had real problems with film curl I'm certain I'd notice a difference, but like I said, my film curl problems are typically minimal.

brent 8927 I had not thought of the DOF of the optics in the scanner being sufficient to compensate for curl ans mentioned by (there was a url link here which no longer exists) above. Now I am thinking the lack of sharpness I am seeing is me.

I wish to keep it simple and try to get buy with the holders provided with the V600. As mentioned above introducing glass means 4 more surfaces to clean . .

Andrew O'Neill · Aug 9, 2017

We shouldn't be talking about scanner stuff here...but for getting 120 negs flat, I've always sleeved them and then left them under books for a few days.

Wallendo · Aug 9, 2017

Badly curled negatives can give blurry images when scanned. The way to determine whether this is scanner related is that with a curled film, the edges (or at least 2 of them) should be sharp with softness in the center.
I use the betterscanning negative holder and am quite happy with it. It uses a single sheet of glass so there are only 2 additional surfaces to worry about. I generally use it with TX400. My experience is that Ilford films are not particularly prone to curling issues and I generally can get by with the Epson holders.

One thing that may help with drying the film is to get a wider clip for the film (such as the plastic clips sold to reseal potato chip bags

k.hendrik · Aug 9, 2017

http://www.123inkt.nl/Maul-papierklem-75-mm-10-stuks-2090796-i35960-t76324.html
I use these.

John Galt · Aug 9, 2017

Andrew O'Neill said:
We shouldn't be talking about scanner stuff here...but for getting 120 negs flat, I've always sleeved them and then left them under books for a few days.

Really? Then where? :/

brent8927 · Aug 9, 2017

John Galt said:
brent 8927 I had not thought of the DOF of the optics in the scanner being sufficient to compensate for curl ans mentioned by (there was a url link here which no longer exists) above. Now I am thinking the lack of sharpness I am seeing is me.

I wish to keep it simple and try to get buy with the holders provided with the V600. As mentioned above introducing glass means 4 more surfaces to clean . .

Sorry if it sounded like I suggested the DOF of the optics in the scanner was enough to compensate for curl--it is a very shallow DOF, and the film should be quite flat. I don't run into too many problems because my film is quite flat, and when it isn't, the book method does the trick for me.

Regardless, I don't think using a flatbed scanner (or film scanner) will ever be as sharp as printing from an enlarger, so things will likely always look a little less sharp than when you do everything analog.

winger · Aug 9, 2017

Wallendo said:
In my limited experience, curling is related to the humidity when drying. TX400, in particular tends to curl excessively if the air is too dry. When I have curling issues, I find that running the shower a few minutes before drying the film helps.

Your scanning issue can be fixed by using a holder with glass. They are somewhat expensive, but address the problem.

Before I start developing the film, I run the hot water in the shower where they'll be drying - just enough to make some steam. This moisturizes the air and gets the dust to drop out some (two birds with one stone idea). When I hang the film, the clips go on diagonally opposite corners. Once they're completely dry (24 hours, usually), they go into Print File sheets and then into a binder. The weight of the other sheets flattens them if they aren't completely flat, but most are fine.

With both film and paper, if they dry very quickly, they are more likely to curl. If the air is more humid and they dry slowly, they're flatter, IME.

Wallendo · Aug 9, 2017

John Galt said:
Really? Then where? :/

APUG generally doesn't tolerate anything not purely analog ... that is until next week when the whole site gets an overhaul and then everything will be different.

Patrick Robert James · Aug 9, 2017

With the switchover being so close, I don't see much point in editing the thread.

You can get a piece of anti-glare plastic for framing and just put your neg emulsion side down on the glass, then cover it with the anti-glare plastic which flattens it right out. Here in the States, Home Depot of all places carries the anti-glare plastic in the glass for framing section. You could also probably use museum glass from a framer. The plastic is really cheap though. Just a few bucks. Museum glass, not so much. You really just need something with a little texture to avoid newton rings.

The other thing you can do is just tape it flat straight on the glass, emulsion down.

Of course now someone will come along and get picky saying that the scan won't be as sharp, but my reply to that is- sharp enough for what? If you want to make big prints you shouldn't be using a consumer flatbed scanner. So it is sharp enough for what you will typically use it for.

Anyway, hope that helps.

Sirius Glass · Aug 9, 2017

Wallendo said:
APUG generally doesn't tolerate anything not purely analog ... that is until next week when the whole site gets an overhaul and then everything will be different.

No, curling is a film problem not a digital problem. The thread is well within the APUG guidelines. If it was not I would be among the first to complain.

tedr1 · Aug 9, 2017

John Galt said:
thanks tedr1, I have that but have not figured out how to use it, can find no reference to it in the users guide :/ and the little graphic on it is useless . .

The rectangular sheet fits in the same groove with the film and it is a little stiffer than the film. The sheet is positioned on-top of the film or alternatively overlapping the cut edge of the film, so that slight pressure is applied to the film to counteract the curve. The sheet may be slid below a film that has curved down, or in the case of a film that has curved upwards the sheet is placed above the film.

Negatives curled make it almost impossible to scan . . .

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