Negatives come out opaque and grey

Kugerfang · Jan 29, 2014

Hi all, I'm a very new BW film user and I've just finished developing my third roll. However, there's a major problem: this happened to the third and second roll:

I assume this is a problem with the film loading onto the reel? These undeveloped parts happen after around 25 or 26th frame. I'm using a plastic tank and reel. I stand develop for an hour with one minute rotation at the first and 30 minute mark using 1+100 Parodinal since when I tried to use traditional developing, my negatives came out very thin. I use vinegar stop bath. The fixer, I forgot.

ww12345 · Jan 29, 2014

Yep. That part of the film stuck to another part of the film, so the developer didn't get a chance to work on that section. Happens to the best of us - just be more careful loading next time.

Vincent Brady · Jan 29, 2014

As a beginner in development of films I think you should go for normal development with agitation every minute. Stand development I gather can be very hit or miss.

Rick A · Jan 29, 2014

Marks are definitly from the film touching itself, not allowing the developer to reach those spots. Like Vincent, I believe you should learn the basics of processing before delving into alternate procedures. If your negatives came out thin, the problem could be underexposure or under development. The way to check for this is to look at the factory markings on the edge of the film. If your negs are thin, and the markings are normal, that is under exposure, If the markings are weak as well as the image, that is under development.

baachitraka · Jan 29, 2014

Please, start with something simple like D-76 and follow manufacturers recommendation for the time and agitation.

Kugerfang · Jan 29, 2014

Thanks everyone for the advice. I have a feeling that my reel is only for 24 exp film. The film becomes difficult to reel in after a certain point. Is that possible? Are there even reels only for 24 exp film? I'm sticking with Parodinal because D-76 is hard to get in my country. Parodinal is available and I can make it at home. I'll stick with standard developing using the Massive Dev Chart times.

snapguy · Jan 29, 2014

I started doing b&w developing prior to 1960 and never heard of "stand development" until this week. I have no idea what it is supposed to be good for but I would not recommend it. As for the reel being for only 24 exposures -- you proved that one. You need to start by doing things "by the book" and later you can experiment. I think you will have a lot more fun that way.

baachitraka · Jan 29, 2014

Stand development: Pour in the developer and do nothing for a certain period of time, mostly for an hour. By that way, contrast can be tamed to certain extent for very high contrast scenes. Additionally, pronounced edge effects can be seen.

Kugerfang · Jan 29, 2014

So, um... since my reel is only for 24 exposures, there's no way I can develop 36 exp film until I get a new reel and tank?

Rick A · Jan 29, 2014

Most plastic reels are for 24 or 36 exposure. They almost all become difficult to load all 36 frames. I will add here that you need more practice loading film, so keep shooting and loading, it will get easier with practice. There are many threads about your problem with loading, heres one to get you started.

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Xmas · Jan 29, 2014

Lots of people have real problems loading plastic reels, some go to stainless steel.

If you have left a film in a camera (which employs reverse wind on the take up spool) for a long time it can acquire a reverse set or memory and be very difficult to load onto a spiral.

You have to feel that the film is moving readily when you move the spiral to load film, if it jams and you use more force it will probably jump out of the groves, with the results you have demonstrated.

I keep one thumb on the film letting the film slip under thumb to monitor a for jam

I leave film a few days in the cassette if it has been in a camera for a few days.

Noel

Gerald C Koch · Jan 29, 2014

baachitraka said:
Stand development: Pour in the developer and do nothing for a certain period of time, mostly for an hour. By that way, contrast can be tamed to certain extent for very high contrast scenes. Additionally, pronounced edge effects can be seen.

With stand development the film should be agitated for the first minute to avoid air bubbles.

Edge effects can be very distracting. While they can give the illusion of greater sharpness, a good rule is less is more.. They should never be obvious to the viewer. Trying to get the right balance can be problematic.

baachitraka · Jan 29, 2014

I will never recommend stand for general purpose development not even to tame contrast. In past it worked with certain film but I got an horrible bromide drag with PanF 50.

MattKing · Jan 29, 2014

What brand and type of reel and tank are you using?

Is there any type of commercially available film developer that you can obtain.

The problem with us trying to help you with developer that you mixed yourself is that we cannot tell whether the problem arises with the ingredients you are using, the way you have mixed them, or how you have used the result.

Personally, I recommend against stand developing except in rare circumstances.

gone · Jan 29, 2014

I'm sure your reel will accommodate a 36 exposure roll, BUT if you are just starting out I would highly recommend starting w/ 24 exp film. It's just easier to get loaded w/ no hassels when you're starting out. A few things to keep in mind: cut the leader squarely, then round off the edges of the film where it starts into the reel w/ some scissors. Just a little will help. Also, when you're loading the film (I assume you have plastic reels), make sure you aren't squeezing them tight during the rocking back and forth action. It's really easy to do. Make a concerted effort to pull the reels SLIGHTLY apart when rocking the film onto the reel. Sacrifice a roll to do this outside of the change bag. A lot. And load the film onto the reel initially outside of the change bag, then put it into the change bag carefully. If you have a Paterson tank, don't forget to put the other reel ON TOP when you load the tank.

Go w/ Tri-X and D76 full strength initially is my idea. Shoot it at 200 ISO (or 400 if you wish), and develop it full strength for 7 minutes at 68 degrees. Agitate it for 30 seconds initially, then 2 inversions every 30 seconds except for the last minute. Agitate gently, w/ a swirly motion. This should get you in the ball park. Forget stand development. There is no reason on earth to start w/ that.

railwayman3 · Jan 29, 2014

I'm a great believer in doing everything by the book until you're familiar with what you're doing, then you can experiment if you need to fine-tune your results. To me that means beginning with a good quality film and, at least initially, keeping to the film speed, developer(s) and time and temperature recommended by the manufacturer. Keep a brief technical note of what you've done, then you have somewhere to start from, and a way to diagnose any problems you may encounter.
It's a bit like cookery....stick to the recipes until you've mastered the basics.

bdial · Jan 29, 2014

Make sure the reel is perfectly dry before you load the film. This is especially true for plastic reels. If there is any moisture on the reel grooves it will cause the film to stick at that point.
The film should go on with only slight force all the way to the end.
If the film seems to stop at the same point each time (before it is fully loaded), there may be a crack or other defect blocking the film from advancing.

Vincent Brady · Jan 29, 2014

It is possible that your reel is not totally dry when you try to load the film and this will cause a lot of problems. I recommend that you use a hair dryer on the reel in order to ensure it is dry. I would also recommend that you practice with a spare roll of film loading the reel several times until you get a real feel for the task. I have never heard of a reel for 24 exposures and I doubt if there is such a one. Loading a film is a bit like learning to drive, so many pedals to control and then suddenly it all seems so easy.

Dave Swinnard · Jan 29, 2014

Regarding loading plastic reels. I've found if I nip the corners off (kind of like a miter cut without worrying about exact angles) there is a much reduced tendency for a little tab of film folding over. This can happen if you cut through a sprocket hole when nipping the leader off. (assuming you're loading the film from the "front" end)

As has been said, some old plastic reels can get very sticky over the years. New ones, and even old ones of some manufacturers allow the film to be slid on with almost no resistance. (the Unicolor, non-adjustable ones in the '80s were wonderfully slippery.)

jspillane · Jan 31, 2014

I didn't see it suggested here, but it will be well worth your time to trash a roll of 35mm and use it as a dummy for practice loading in the light. If you have a problem then, you'll be able to see what it is and work out a way to correct it. Once you can load comfortably in the light, try repeating in a changing bag or dark room until you feel comfortable there. Once you feel comfortable with a style of reel, stick to it. I tend to prefer metal reels, but I also don't shoot a lot of 35mm (a lot of people find the plastic reels easier to load with 35mm, and I'd generally agree).

I haven't messed around with Parodinal, but be aware that if you are making it yourself, you introduce a ton of other variables... If you can't easily access D76 or something similar, Rodinal is a very reliable developer. Hold off on stand for the time being, and try normal development at 1:50 following the times listed in the massive dev chart for your film stock under rodinal (http://www.digitaltruth.com/devchart.php?Film&Developer=Rodinal&mdc=Search). If the negs come out thin, no problem, just add more time next roll. Also, if you are using an camera with an internal light meter, be sure to check it against something (preferably a light meter you know is calibrated, but a digital camera can put you in the ball park as well) as the thin negs could be the result of inaccurate readings rather than improper development.

Kugerfang · Feb 1, 2014

Everything's fixed now. It turns out that yes, the rolls weren't being fed in right now because the reel was wet. I dried it off and a 36 exp roll slides right in. I did standard development using Massive dev chart times and the roll came out great. Thanks for all the advice!

fotch · Feb 1, 2014

Kugerfang said:
Everything's fixed now. It turns out that yes, the rolls weren't being fed in right now because the reel was wet. I dried it off and a 36 exp roll slides right in. I did standard development using Massive dev chart times and the roll came out great. Thanks for all the advice!

That is good, congrats. If it ever happens again, cut the film when it gets difficult, and yes, lose a frame, better than losing lots of frames. I like Stainless Steel, Nikor, Kindermann, Hewes, because you can even load them wet and I never have a problem with them. I think some reels, at least SS do come in a 24x size, and I would get rid of those rather than find out in the dark its a problem.

Negatives come out opaque and grey

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