negative to digital to negative

Doc W · Apr 10, 2015

I think I asked about this a few years ago, but nothing ever came of it. So here goes again.

I have a badly scratched 4x5 neg that I would like to get fixed so I can print with it. Spotting the print is not really a good solution since the scratch is not trivial and I am no expert at spotting. I have read bits and pieces here and there about fixing the negative with spotting methods but, again, I don't think I have that skill.

I have heard of photographers getting smaller negatives scanned so they can be reproduced as larger negatives for use in platinum printing. I think that might be the best option here: scan, repair in PS, and print out in negative form. However, I have no experience with this. What are the limitations and the pitfalls? Most importantly, who does this kind of work? I can't find anyone local.

removed account4 · Apr 10, 2015

hi doc w.

i have done crude digital negatives by making inverted xerox copies ( photostatic copies )
and printing them. it worked very well for what i needed to use them for )
but it was not very sophisticated. i don't have any experience making actual digital film negatives
but the good folks at DPUG know all about that, and do it often.http://www.dpug.org/forums/f8/
chances are by posting this here on apug you will get snarky unhelpful remarks with people blurting out
" go to drug " or " sorry this is analog only " &c ... there is a forun on dpug that deals specifically with digital negatives
( that is what i linked you to ) if you haven't checked it out, it might be worth a trip ...

i know what a drag it is to have damaged negatives ...

good luck !

john

MattKing · Apr 10, 2015

For the last part of your procedure, the equipment used is known as a film recorder.

That is what the motion picture industry used to use to make projection prints from the digital intermediaries that are used for editing.

I have friends here on APUG who have a film recorder that they use in order to permit darkroom printing from their digital images, but we really aren't supposed to talk about that.

Doc W · Apr 10, 2015

Thanks for the quick reply, guys!

Matt, do you know anyone to whom I could send my negative? If so, I can contact you privately if you feel you can't talk about it.

Matt Fattori · Apr 11, 2015

True Silver Digital Negatives.

wildbill · Apr 11, 2015

https://search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?p=lvt+film+recorder&ei=UTF-8&hspart=mozilla&hsimp=yhs-001

nworth · Apr 11, 2015

You may or may not be able to solve the problem by scanning, but it is a step in trying. If it is a fairly large negative (645 or bigger), you can get all the definition you need by scanning with a decent flatbed scanner like the Epson 700 series. Even the basic model will reliably give about 2400 ppi, and the high end will do a bit better. Photoshop and a few other high end applications give lots of tools for fixing images, but learning them can be quite a task. It's easy to learn how to do basic spotting which matches nearby objects (clone tool), and often that is all you need. But using several tools together makes it possible to restore quite badly damaged pictures. You may need to get a good book, read it, and do the exercises to build competence. Once repaired you will have a digital file, and you will have to print it digitally. Printers that give even just decent black and white prints are expensive and fairly scarce, and I generally don't think even good digital prints come up to the standards of optical prints. But at least you will have a print.

GRHazelton · Apr 11, 2015

Looking at nworth's post, how about scanning in the negative, AS A NEGATIVE then cleaning up the scan image in Photoshop or Elements. I do digital as well as film, and Elements is probably entirely adequate. Then look into a printing service, or a friend with a photo quality inkjet printer. If the printer will handle transparency stock, print the NEGATIVE image at the size of the original on the transparent stock, and you have a "negative" for wet work. No need to worry about the bane of digital BW printing, color cast. With luck and some work this might solve your problem.

Good luck and let us know how it all works out.

Doc W · Apr 13, 2015

Thanks for all the suggestions. It looks like there are places out there I can get negatives made.

I want to make it clear that I already scan and print most of my own colour, unless it is a really large print I want, in which case I go to a lab. I don't just want a digital print from this scratched negative. I want to be able to play with it in the darkroom.

Bill Burk · Apr 13, 2015

Just to give a pure analog answer... You could make a best effort "reproduction" grade print, spot the print. Where black spots appear on print you can paint white... Then re-photograph the print to get a negative to make more prints.

These 2nd generation prints could be expressive and would have maybe a few white spots that need spotting. And white spots are not hard to retouch.

Harry Lime · Apr 13, 2015

Try these

http://bowhaus.com/index.php4

http://bowhaus.com/index.php4

http://www.weldoncolorlab.com/drumscans.php

removed account4 · Apr 13, 2015

Bill Burk said:
Just to give a pure analog answer... You could make a best effort "reproduction" grade print, spot the print. Where black spots appear on print you can paint white... Then re-photograph the print to get a negative to make more prints.

These 2nd generation prints could be expressive and would have maybe a few white spots that need spotting. And white spots are not hard to retouch.

this method works very well. and you could use tmx (100 ) for your copy negative ..
it is what kodak recommends for copy-film.

Mainecoonmaniac · Apr 13, 2015

I use inkjet negs for cyanotype and Ziatype. I think the resolution is too low for enlargement. Contact printing is ok. I tried contact printing with clear film with silver gelatin printing and I can see dots of ink from the neg on the print. If silver gelatin print is your goal you might want to try this film for contact printing. Good luck.

https://www.bostick-sullivan.com/cart/product.php?productid=709&cat=170&page=1

flavio81 · Apr 13, 2015

The Kodak PREMIER Image Enhancement System did this in the late 90s if i recall correctly.

wildbill · Apr 13, 2015

Mainecoonmaniac said:
I use inkjet negs for cyanotype and Ziatype. I think the resolution is too low for enlargement. Contact printing is ok. I tried contact printing with clear film with silver gelatin printing and I can see dots of ink from the neg on the print. If silver gelatin print is your goal you might want to try this film for contact printing. Good luck.

https://www.bostick-sullivan.com/cart/product.php?productid=709&cat=170&page=1

read this: http://www.mprosenberg.com/digital-negatives
he prints the inverted image onto glossy paper with an epson, then contact prints onto silver gelatin paper. no transparency film involved.

I haven't tried it yet but Michael swears by the results.

Mainecoonmaniac · Apr 13, 2015

Wow thanks for the info

wildbill said:
read this: http://www.mprosenberg.com/digital-negatives
he prints the inverted image onto glossy paper with an epson, then contact prints onto silver gelatin paper. no transparency film involved.

I haven't tried it yet but Michael swears by the results.

I'll give it a try. It's gonna be a while because it takes lots of trial and error to get the PS curve right.

I would think another application would be to make printing masks for contact printing analog LF negs. You can hold back burnt out highlights and even have different paper grades by either print areas magenta or yellow all on one sheet.

I don't know if it's just me, but silver gelatin prints done with digital negs look different and leaves me a bit cold.:confused:

pschwart · Apr 13, 2015

Some relatively straightforward solutions:

- make a digital negative and contact print using the process of choice. Digital negs are not
sufficient for enlarging. Making a quality digital neg is not trivial, so you might want to contract for
this.
- scan the damaged neg, repair in Photoshop, make an inkjet print, and photograph the inkjet to
create a new neg. If you find a lab with a process camera, you will get a very high quality
large format neg.
- copy repaired digital image back to film via film recorder. DR5 might be able to do this:
http://www.dr5.com/digitalsilver.html

Prof_Pixel · Apr 13, 2015

pschwart said:
Digital negs are not sufficient for enlarging.

That's true for dnegs made on inkjet printers but not true for dnegs made on quality film recorders.

Prof_Pixel · Apr 13, 2015

flavio81 said:
The Kodak PREMIER Image Enhancement System did this in the late 90s if i recall correctly.

I spent several years at Kodak working on PREMIER. It actually came out in the early '90s and lasted thru the late '90s.

It was film in, digital modify and film out. One of the driving forces was a lack of good color calibration standards for monitors used in 4 color printing. PREMIER made it possible to send duplicate transparencies to printers around the world so that something printed in Germany (for example) would look the same as something printed in the US.

pschwart · Apr 13, 2015

Prof_Pixel said:
That's true for dnegs made on inkjet printers but not true for dnegs made on quality film recorders.

OK, but common usage for "digital negative" is inkjet output on transparent film.

Doc W · Apr 13, 2015

It looks like the route for me is to contact one of these firms that uses a film recorder. I can get the scan and fix done locally and send them the file.

I had thought of making a digital print and photographing it to get a new negative, but photographs of prints always look like photographs of prints to me. It is never quite the same thing. I know that the scanning process can produce very high resolution files so I am hoping that this can be made into a satisfactory negative for the darkroom.

Mainecoonmaniac · Apr 13, 2015

I'm really interested in the final results

Doc W said:
I am hoping that this can be made into a satisfactory negative for the darkroom.

Please tell us how it goes.

Best,
Don

Doc W · Apr 13, 2015

Thanks, Don. Will do.

David A. Goldfarb · Apr 13, 2015

This is really a topic for DPUG.org. Quantity may be low there, but quality is high, and there are many people who discuss this kind of work, myself included, on APUG's sister site.

negative to digital to negative

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