Negative Schmutz

Pieter12 · Aug 5, 2020

That's the only way I can describe it. I went to print a negative from about 4 years ago and discovered the non-emulsion side had a hazy, uneven layer of something on it. I tried cleaning it with water on a Pec-Pad, film cleaner on a Pec-Pad, immersing it in water for a short while, nothing seems to take it off. How do I clean this?

jtk · Aug 5, 2020

answers: #1 no hope #2 hope that you can wash it off and get a decent print out of it.

mshchem · Aug 5, 2020

I would put it on a reel and wash it for 15 minutes in tepid water, no warmer than 75F. A couple drops of Dawn dish liquid in a pint of water and soak? Where did said crud come from?

Pieter12 · Aug 5, 2020

mshchem said:
I would put it on a reel and wash it for 15 minutes in tepid water, no warmer than 75F. A couple drops of Dawn dish liquid in a pint of water and soak? Where did said crud come from?

I don't know. My theory at this point is it may be excess PhotoFlo, maybe too strong a solution. It doesn't just wipe off with a wet PecPad, so I do think the next step is to re-wash the film for 10 minutes.

NB23 · Aug 6, 2020

I’d try alcohol

or why not, dishwashing soap?

foc · Aug 6, 2020

How was the neg stored?

As has been described above, tepid water (around 20C) in a tray of 500ml of water and one drop of Photoflo or washing up liquid (just one drop) and leave to soak for 5 -10 mins.
Then gently (and I mean gently) with your finger and thumb, rub part of the film (best start with the edge) and see does that feel as though the crud is removed or is your gentle rubbing removing it.

Film emulsion when wet is delicate but can still take some gentle handling.

I have used this method to clean negs that had stuck to their glassine neg sheets.

Lachlan Young · Aug 6, 2020

Don't use anything dish soap or anything like that - please, for the good of your negs use the proper surfactants like Photo Flo, Ilfotol etc (or their constituents) - the additives in household detergents are not tested for compatibility with film. You might also want to consider using distilled water for soaking - you'd be amazed what a gentle soak can persuade an emulsion to let go of - including stuff like hair that got seemingly welded on during the drying step.

jvo · Aug 6, 2020

i have an very old bottle of "kodak film cleaner", if you can find it.

also do a search for the name and a list alternatives from kodak. (i couldn't insert the link here - being an analog photographer, i'm not qualified!)

Neal · Aug 6, 2020

Dear Pieter12,

I have no magic solution for you but Edwal No-Scratch might help when you go to print. It has saved me a number of times with old beat up negatives my Father had.

Good luck,

Neal Wydra

NB23 · Aug 6, 2020

Lachlan Young said:
Don't use anything dish soap or anything like that - please, for the good of your negs use the proper surfactants like Photo Flo, Ilfotol etc (or their constituents) - the additives in household detergents are not tested for compatibility with film. You might also want to consider using distilled water for soaking - you'd be amazed what a gentle soak can persuade an emulsion to let go of - including stuff like hair that got seemingly welded on during the drying step.

Why not dish soap? It’s on the non-emulsion side, remember? The acerate can take anything.

You seem to think the crud is on the cv emulsion side.

Lachlan Young · Aug 6, 2020

NB23 said:
Why not dish soap? It’s on the non-emulsion side, remember? The acerate can take anything.

You seem to think the crud is on the cv emulsion side.

Most films have gelatin layers on the back as well - anti-curl, anti-stat etc. Non photographic surfactants may leave deposits or cause long term problems from the perfumes, colours etc. Why be cheap/ lazy when you could just do the job once and do it right? And anyway, how do you propose ensuring that you just wet the back of a 120 film?

NB23 · Aug 6, 2020

Lachlan Young said:
Most films have gelatin layers on the back as well - anti-curl, anti-stat etc. Non photographic surfactants may leave deposits or cause long term problems from the perfumes, colours etc. Why be cheap/ lazy when you could just do the job once and do it right? And anyway, how do you propose ensuring that you just wet the back of a 120 film?

As I always do with all my c-41 films that all have crud after having been processed in tetenal c-41 kits: lay flat on the emulsion side on a soft surface. Wet a cotton pad with 99% alcohol and gently rub the acetate surface. Sometimes not so gently.

if problem persists; dilute soap on cotton pad and rub away, then wash.

If problem persists, dip in water and rub the acetate side with thumb, then Rewash as usual.

Lachlan Young · Aug 6, 2020

NB23 said:
As I always do with all my c-41 films that all have crud after having been processed in tetenal c-41 kits: lay flat on the emulsion side on a soft surface. Wet a cotton pad with 99% alcohol and gently rub the acetate surface. Sometimes not so gently.

if problem persists; dilute soap on cotton pad and rub away, then wash.

If problem persists, dip in water and rub the acetate side with thumb, then Rewash as usual.

The C-41 stabiliser is a PITA - I think it may be designed for use with an air knife or roller squeegees. It likes to collect in 135 perfs and create weird diffraction/ interference patterns... A very careful and thorough squeegeeing (use fingers!) followed by a controlled drying profile are the only way I've been able to get the residue to stay gone.

jeffreyg · Aug 6, 2020

I don't know where you are located but it could be your water. Very many years ago I ran into a somewhat similar situation with x-rays in my dental practice. It turned out to be something with the city water and was calcium-carbonate. I was able to remove it with a weal acid solution and then a rinse with distilled water. There is also PEC film cleaner. You could try different suggestions on an unimportant negative to see if any work.

http://www.jeffreyglasser.com/

http://wwwsculptureandphotography.com/

pentaxuser · Aug 6, 2020

NB23 said:
I’d try alcohol

or why not, dishwashing soap?

When things go wrong I always find that alcohol helps but just feeling cleaner not so much

pentaxuser

Pieter12 · Aug 6, 2020

Well, I rewashed the negative strip for 10 minutes--no difference. I then gently wiped it with Dawn detergent--still drying, but from what I can tell it's the same. Yesterday I had tried film cleaner (from the smell, mostly alcohol) and it didn't clean it off either. I had made a print when I first shot the film, and I don't recall seeing anything untoward about it, but I want to reprint it larger and on FB paper, making some tweaks. When it has had a good chance to dry, I will probably print it tomorrow and see.

mark · Aug 6, 2020

When you touch it does feel like orange peel? I've used PEC 12 on some seriously messy negs. Worth a shot. Make sure you try all cleaning attempts in the spaces beteen the images. I'm wondering about the storage conditions as well.

Negative Schmutz

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