Needing to enlarge up to 24x24

eddie · Feb 16, 2013

healingvirtue said:
Another note, the work I am planning is often very surrealistic, blurred, hola-ish, and sometimes defocusing the whole image. Perfect developement is by far not my concern. But I do want to use FB paper because that is the quality standard.

Based on what you plan to do, you might want to consider sponge developing. All you need is a 1/4 inch thick (or thicker) piece of plexiglass larger than your print size. Using gutters, and gutter caps, make enough for each step (dev/stop/fix/etc.), about 2-3 inches wider than the plexiglass. You lean the plexi on an angle against a solid surface, sponging the chemistry on. It drips into the gutter, and can be used again. Use a separate sponge for each chemical. It's best if you have a different piece of plexi for each chemical, but you can make an extra gutter that you fill with water, so you can dip the plexi before moving to the next chemical, avoiding excessive contamination.
I think you'll even like the creative possibilities with this system. You're able to selectively apply the chems. Years ago, I did some bleach/toning with this method. I was purposely sloppy with the applications of bleach and toner, and the results were interesting.

Good luck with the project. I hope you show us what you come up with.

healingvirtue · Feb 16, 2013

MattKing said:
The wall bracket will work just as well with the 23C.

And a standing wall will be harder to align than a horizontal surface.

And handling large paper is a fair bit easier on a horizontal surface.

Thank you very much. Now just to figure out how to do the wall bracket!

healingvirtue · Feb 16, 2013

eddie said:
Based on what you plan to do, you might want to consider sponge developing. All you need is a 1/4 inch thick (or thicker) piece of plexiglass larger than your print size. Using gutters, and gutter caps, make enough for each step (dev/stop/fix/etc.), about 2-3 inches wider than the plexiglass. You lean the plexi on an angle against a solid surface, sponging the chemistry on. It drips into the gutter, and can be used again. Use a separate sponge for each chemical. It's best if you have a different piece of plexi for each chemical, but you can make an extra gutter that you fill with water, so you can dip the plexi before moving to the next chemical, avoiding excessive contamination.
I think you'll even like the creative possibilities with this system. You're able to selectively apply the chems. Years ago, I did some bleach/toning with this method. I was purposely sloppy with the applications of bleach and toner, and the results were interesting.

Good luck with the project. I hope you show us what you come up with.

Very interesting method. Sounds a little awkward though isn't it?

eddie · Feb 16, 2013

It's not awkward at all. I'd recommend diluting the developer more than usual if you want to develop evenly.

healingvirtue · Feb 16, 2013

eddie said:
It's not awkward at all. I'd recommend diluting the developer more than usual if you want to develop evenly.

OK. I'm seriously considering this method then. Also, seems rather inexpensive.

eddie · Feb 16, 2013

A 10 foot gutter will give you 4 30 inch pieces for about $7.00. 8 caps will run about $24.00. The proper glue is a few dollars. You can do 4 for under $35.00. The plexiglass can be expensive. I bought mine at a plexi wholesaler. They had large pieces which were scratched on one side, so they were cheap. I think I ended up with 4 28x28 pieces for about $40.00. Some of the damaged ones were larger but they trimmed them for $1.00 a cut.

What I like about this method is what you can do with it. In addition to the sloppy toner application I mentioned, I also did some bleach/toning using a paintbrush, just around the edges. I rotated the plexi so I just painted on the bottom, having the chems drip to the edge of the paper. The central part of the image remained untoned. The edges were toned in a funky way, with brushmarks, and variations.

healingvirtue · Feb 17, 2013

eddie said:
A 10 foot gutter will give you 4 30 inch pieces for about $7.00. 8 caps will run about $24.00. The proper glue is a few dollars. You can do 4 for under $35.00. The plexiglass can be expensive. I bought mine at a plexi wholesaler. They had large pieces which were scratched on one side, so they were cheap. I think I ended up with 4 28x28 pieces for about $40.00. Some of the damaged ones were larger but they trimmed them for $1.00 a cut.

What I like about this method is what you can do with it. In addition to the sloppy toner application I mentioned, I also did some bleach/toning using a paintbrush, just around the edges. I rotated the plexi so I just painted on the bottom, having the chems drip to the edge of the paper. The central part of the image remained untoned. The edges were toned in a funky way, with brushmarks, and variations.

Interesting, do you have those images archived online? And was the pexi wholesaler local or did they ship it to you?

paul_c5x4 · Feb 17, 2013

healingvirtue said:
And thank you very much for the warning about the tray hole. I don't know what to do about it. Like someone else noted, emptying a tray so large would not be easy... But I have the room, so using three trays is fine, it's the price that is the issue.

Garden Trays come in various sizes - Worth looking at if you think photographic trays are expensive.

As for drilling large holes - Use a hole saw, and don't try it on an old tray. Most plastics become brittle as they age.

Roger Cole · Feb 17, 2013

ac12 said:
As was mentioned, since you have not done darkroom work before, start out small. This way the cost of you learning how to enlarge is reduced. The bigger paper is EXPENSIVE, so you do not want to waste it learning how to print. When you can reliably print 8x10, then you can move up, one paper size at a time, because you also have to learn how to handle the bigger paper.

As David said, if you have the space, I would get a 4x5 enlarger. If you are space constrained or have to pack up or move the enlarger due to not having a permanent setup, then a MF enlarger 6x6 or 6x7 size. According to my D5 manual, a standard D5 chassis with an 80mm lens will make 10.2x enlargement, an XL chassis will make a 14.2x enlargement. So if you have the vertical height available, an XL chassis is a better long term choice...as long as you have the vertical height so it fits. My D5 manual says max height of D5XL is 64 inches. That is 5 feet 4 inches tall !!! To focus, you will need a small step ladder to get up that high.

You also need to plan how you will process the LARGE print.

For larger than 11x14, or even starting at 11x14, I would go with single tray or drum, to avoid handling a BIG sheet of wet paper.
Honeywell and Heath/Mitchell had rocking trays up to 16x20 that you can use for single tray processing. I used the Honeywell 11x14 rocking tray and it worked well. You have to search the used market for these rocking trays.
For LARGE size, same as PKM-25, I would use a drum. The trick is finding one that big. My biggest drum is 16x20.

Finally how will you wash the print? BIG washers are EXPENSIVE, a 20x24 will probably cost well over $500...used. The only low cost alternative that I know of is the Kodak washing tray syphon.

11x14 is almost trivially easy to handle moving tray to tray, only slightly harder than 8x10. It only starts getting difficult in my experience at 16x20 which is a BIG jump in difficulty and the largest size I print.

Also, washing should be easy if you don't make too many prints. A tray siphon is fine, but you can also just use successive still water soaks. I have to do this currently for any prints larger than 8x10. You just fill a tray with clean water and soak the print for 10 minutes, then move it to another tray of clean water and, while the print is in the second tray, change the water in the first so it can be rotated back to it after ten minutes. This is annoying and cumbersome if you have many prints, a lot more work than just turning on the water for even one print, but works fine. Soak 10 minutes first, then 10 minutes in a wash aid, then six successive ten minute soaks should give you a good wash. It's quite workable if you only make a few prints. This is for fiber based paper of course. I agree that RC would be easier to handle in those sizes and given your style might suit you fine. It is much easier to wash. I've never tried the successive soak method with RC but it should work even better, just not take as long. You'd be on your own figuring out HOW long though. Normally a five minute running water wash is sufficient for RC but if using still water soaks I'd start with at least two.

eddie · Feb 17, 2013

healingvirtue said:
Interesting, do you have those images archived online? And was the pexi wholesaler local or did they ship it to you?

I don't have any of them online. It was decades ago...
The wholesaler was local. I would think most major metropolitan areas would have one.

M Carter · Feb 17, 2013

Couple notes:

As I mentioned earlier, a tray raised on a platform with a drain is very workable; You can even use an Ikea "Dilling" storage box (30 x 27 x 8" deep) as a tray.

Take a look at a standard bathroom sink - the chrome ring of the drain passes through a hole in the sink; the outside of the drain pipe is threaded, and a large collar-type ring screws upwards, against a rubber washer and fastens the drain to the sink. A "stopper" style drain "without overflow" (which uses a rubber plug & chain) is about 9 bucks.

You cut a hole in the tray with a hole saw; put a ring of plumber's putty or silicone around the top, pass the drain through, and use the rubber washer and the collar to snug it up against the bottom. This works very well, and the rubber squeezing it all together seems to keep it from cracking.

For washing, you can set the whole thing across a bathtub; stick a suitable piece of PVC in the tray-drain, which raises the drain a couple inches; pipe in some water (use one of those rubber wash hoses that sticks into a faucet from a photo supplier) - the water will fill to the top of the PVC and drain over (and into the bathtub) and function as a wash sink.

Heck, just using the bathtub as a wash sink is something I did back in the day.

eddie · Feb 17, 2013

Those Dillings are a great idea. I've used similar under-bed storage items for printing. Hard to beat the IKEA price, but check Home Depot and Lowe's, too.

nworth · Feb 17, 2013

I have never made prints that big, although I have an enlarger that can do it (a horizontal 8X10 DeVere mural enlarger). Finding a good, working 8X10 enlarger can be a problem. One possibility, if you have experience with such things, is to modify an old 8X10 view camera or a view camera kit. A rigid support for such a thing could be quite a problem. Suspending it from the ceiling is a possibility, although that only helps.

Paper handling will be a problem. Trays are readily available for this size of paper, but sinks are more difficult. Some people build troughs of the appropriate size and seesaw the paper through the solutions during processing. In any case, diluting the developer beyond the usual recommendations will slow things down and make the paper easier to handle.

PKM-25 · Feb 17, 2013

Nworth, he is not making enlargements from 8x10 negs but only 6x6, big difference.

But seriously, the "Can't-do, it's too hard!" tone of this thread is kind of bizarre...

It's pretty easy in my opinion but then again I have either purchased items or made items that make it easy. Anyone can do it, it is more of a question of if you want to spend the money on the correct tools to not waste a $350 50 sheet box of 20x24 paper.

It's expensive paper, why half-ass it with hillbilly solutions when your time and money could be better spent in doing it right the first time?

eddie · Feb 17, 2013

While I don't recommend a new printer to start with large prints, it only makes sense for the OP to try large prints in an economical way. The truth is, unless he starts with smaller prints, I think he'll be frustrated with the issues he encounters at the size he wants to print. Offering work-arounds for costlier options is hardly "hillbilly". In his case it's common sense.

fotch · Feb 17, 2013

Easy to empty any size tray, no holes, pumps, just a simple system, I should patent it. Well, anyway, you can use any hose, I prefer clear plastic hose, say 1/2 inch size, about 30 inches long.

Submerge the entire hose in the solution, get all the air out by holding down the middle of the hose and let the air escape through the ends. An alternate way is to put a funnel on one side, keep the other side submerged, then pour some of the solution into the hose to fill it, lowering the funnel size into the tray as you get near the top.

Then, keeping the inlet side under the solution, take the other side, with your thumb on the hose to keep air/solution from getting in an out, and lower the hose down into a plastic bucket (the type with a pouring spout for later transfer into a bottle) and release the thumb so the solution then flows. It will siphon the tray solution into the bucket, as long as you keep the hose in the tray below the solution, so no air breaks the siphon.

Hopefully, I describe this so it is understood. Works perfect and have used in when transferring fluids out of large trays.

PKM-25 · Feb 17, 2013

eddie said:
While I don't recommend a new printer to start with large prints, it only makes sense for the OP to try large prints in an economical way. The truth is, unless he starts with smaller prints, I think he'll be frustrated with the issues he encounters at the size he wants to print. Offering work-arounds for costlier options is hardly "hillbilly". In his case it's common sense.

I hear you and I don't necessarily disagree but I also know that when I started printing a bit over a year ago, I tried the less costlier things and it got exhausting at times to not get what I wanted out of my prints. Once I realized that the right tools like a $200 Jobo 3063 drum and a motor base would produce flawless, consistent and beautiful prints that I could sell and I would enjoy the process far more, the term cut to the chase made me never want to cheap out on the process ever again.

We are all different, I do this for a living and want pro results every single time...

healingvirtue · Feb 17, 2013

Thanks again for the very helpful suggestions. I have a bit to think about with the several different options. Right now I'm trying to acquire a Beseller 23c regular and will need to use one of the alternative mounting solutions mentioned here.

I will definitely, of course, be working my way up to probably 20x20 for now, or a similar size. Actually, I don't even know the standard printing size for 6x6 at the moment. But I would like to be printing around at least 20x20 for an upcoming collection I hope to show in local galleries.

Those garden/Ikea trays are a really great sounding option.

That syphoning method sounds like a good option, but I was a little lost on the description. I'm sure it want't the posters fault, but as I mentioned, I am mechanically illiterate to a great degree; which makes this whole project quite a challenge.

I know most people love working with Jobo's, but I actually don't like working with Jobo's and motors much (even if i had the money to spend) since I like handling the print for some reason. I used that method for developing 8x10 negs for a short time and soon went back to tray development which i mush preferred simply because i like handling the film/print.

eddie · Feb 17, 2013

Something like this might make siphoning easier:
http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_...P&srccode=cii_17588969&cpncode=32-231428091-2

richard ide · Feb 17, 2013

Before I got in to business making enlargements etc., someone gave me a roll of 42" paper. My darkroom was 48 x 72. I could turn my enlarger head horizontal and enlarge on to a wall outside the door. I made 30 x 40 prints and developed them by sticking the print to a wet tile wall above the bath tub. I developed, stopped, and fixed prints with sponges and washed the prints in the bath tub. Really easy and no real cost.

healingvirtue · Feb 17, 2013

Very nice Richard. I like the sound of that, although I won't have a bathroom to work in. Still, I know I could figure out a similar option. But I am leaning towards the single tray syphoning method.

Also, I just decided, after looking at paper sizes readily available, that I am going to aim to print 40x40, or 42x42 (Same thing essentially). Since the rolls come in 42.5x33. The cost of the FB paper is very reasonable. I am going to start out printing 20x20. Then move up to some cheap Arista VC 42x33 roll. Then, I will make my final prints on some 42x33 FB paper.

I'm now thinking vertical projection will be impossible with this size and I will need a horizontal set-up.

I have the space fortunately, even for the large tray. So, that is great. I know jumping right into 20x20 might be a little stretch, but those are all just practice sheets (10 sheets). Then, I will do a whole roll of 42x33 solely for practice. I think this is very sufficient. As I said before, I don't need "perfect" results. But, I am not planning on dodging and burning much, if at all, so that is another difficulty out of the way. Also, I will only be printing one size to make it more simple for me (42x42).

I am considering making some simple frames myself, but I wonder if the cost savings will be worth it considering that I will need to buy all of the tools to start. I really like the idea, and I don't think it would be too time consuming to make a simple frame.

healingvirtue · Feb 17, 2013

richard ide said:
Before I got in to business making enlargements etc., someone gave me a roll of 42" paper. My darkroom was 48 x 72. I could turn my enlarger head horizontal and enlarge on to a wall outside the door. I made 30 x 40 prints and developed them by sticking the print to a wet tile wall above the bath tub. I developed, stopped, and fixed prints with sponges and washed the prints in the bath tub. Really easy and no real cost.

So you literally just stuck the print to the wall without any kind of fasteners, just moisture?

richard ide · Feb 18, 2013

Yes. Sticks like it was glued on.

M Carter · Feb 18, 2013

eddie said:
Those Dillings are a great idea. I've used similar under-bed storage items for printing. Hard to beat the IKEA price, but check Home Depot and Lowe's, too.

Oh, believe me I have! There's one box that's fairly big, but about twice the $$ of the Ikea. Of course, Ikea's are sparse compared to the big home centers. But you can get MEATBALLS AND SAUCE at Ikea!

healingvirtue · Feb 24, 2013

thank you all very much. I'm planning to do 40x40 prints now, so I will definitely be going with the wall mount. I just got a Beseller 23c XLiii with dichro head, and a rodagon f/4. I'm wondering what lensboard will work? Any other pointers are aprreciated!

Needing to enlarge up to 24x24

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